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US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

macrumors.com

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Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#171

Post by ralmidani »

dylan604 wrote: post #159
jacquesm wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh absolutely it is. But all app store developers are complicit in enabling that monopoly. What should happen is that all app store developers withdraw their apps until Apple sees the light. But that won't happen because every app store developer will be pitted against their competition in a race to the bottom who will accept the highest fees that Apple is going to impose and sooner or later you'll be back at that 30…

How is this any different from brick&mortar big box retailers beating on their suppliers to lower their wholesale prices to the point they can only make a profit with large volume in sales? I guarantee you that 70% of your MSRP is way more than selling in a store.

One difference: physical goods suppliers can theoretically choose to sell and deliver direct any of their goods to any consumer willing to pay for them. With the app store, at least in the US, the captive audience can’t side-load, and now Apple is introducing even more absurdity with its bad faith “revision” to the policy.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#172

Post by hyperbovine »

llm_nerd wrote: post #74

This feels like a straw that breaks the camel's back kind of moment. Apple has gotten away with a tremendous amount (being an astonishingly greedy company. All companies are de facto greedy, but Apple is just next level in its egregious entitlement), but there is simply zero way this stands. And FWIW, I'm an Apple fan and find Tim S a completely unsympathetic character. But seeing the hilariously absurd lengths that…

> But seeing the hilariously absurd lengths that people will go to justify Apple's outrageous greed grows old.

Define greed. Seriously, I'm asking for an objective definition, not just ipse dixit.

They're charging what the market will bear for a _vastly_ better product (iOS vs. Android).

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#174

Post by jussaying2 »

lolinder wrote: post #117
llm_nerd wrote: post #74

This feels like a straw that breaks the camel's back kind of moment. Apple has gotten away with a tremendous amount (being an astonishingly greedy company. All companies are de facto greedy, but Apple is just next level in its egregious entitlement), but there is simply zero way this stands. And FWIW, I'm an Apple fan and find Tim S a completely unsympathetic character. But seeing the hilariously absurd lengths that…

The details of the process of getting approval for links may be out of line, but the idea that simply using a different payment processor would remove the entirety of the 30% commission was always a pipe dream. Apple has always been adamant that the fee is for the service of using the App Store, not the payment processor, and that you owe them for sales made regardless of whether they're able to take the money direct…

> Apple has always been adamant that the fee is for the service of using the App Store, not the payment processor

So charge developers for the service of using the App Store, perhaps with a per-download cost. To "give away" the service of the App Store only to recuperate your costs (and then some) via payment processing is just daylight robbery.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#175

Post by dylan604 »

jacquesm wrote: post #162
dylan604 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this any different from brick&mortar big box retailers beating on their suppliers to lower their wholesale prices to the point they can only make a profit with large volume in sales? I guarantee you that 70% of your MSRP is way more than selling in a store.

It is no different, which is why suppliers to such stores routinely collaborate if they feel that they are being squeezed too much. It is also why house brands are a thing.

and yet this has been happening long before Apple and App Stores were a thing, and nobody has been sued to stop it.

Also, as some other comment has pointed out, the % Apple takes is from their role as one manager. Ask an actor or sports ball player what happens if they don't pay their manager the % owed.

I just haven't figured out why software devs think they are so special that they don't have to pay to play. I have seen no honest answers to this other than Apple === BAD. Devs are pretty much "all monies are belong to us"

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#176

Post by turquoisevar »

radley wrote: post #76
turquoisevar wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends. If we’re talking about the details of the implementation, maybe. If it’s about the commission that still needs to be paid, then no. That’s directly mentioned in the original ruling by the district court, a commission is due regardless.

I think the real problem is unlimited access to accounting books for any business that has an iOS app. This will affect free apps too, since they now have the potential to offer purchases outside the app store. (Obviously, strategic partners and FAANG are exempt.)

In theory, perhaps, in practice Apple will only audit the developers that use the special entitlement.

Ironically, this is something that is bothering the appellate court as well if you read between the lines of their judgment[0].

They gently criticize the district court for both saying that developers should be able to link and sell outside the app while simultaneously saying that it’s undesirable for Apple to audit developers because it’s too cumbersome.

But the appellate court isn’t meant for do overs, just for when courts have erred in a significant way, so they only gently lament this, instead of doing something about it.

0: https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2023/04/24/2...

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#177

Post by stouset »

poundofshrimp wrote: post #145

To see why Apple’s mandatory commissions are absurd, compare phones to desktop computers. There is no fundamental difference between the two. So, why is it okay to install whatever you want and pay for it directly on desktops, but on phones it is not? The “better security” argument just doesn’t make sense in this context.

Apple is hosting, distributing, and directly marketing apps in the app store. They are reviewing submitted apps for compliance with their policies and security requirements.

If you want to compare it to desktop computers, great! Compare it to the macOS App Store which… takes a 30% commission.

Whether or not you personally agree that 30% is a reasonable fee, you can't simply deny that operating the app store costs money and resources. Further, it isn't unreasonable for them to try to recoup those costs or even to make some profit off of providing the service.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#178

Post by dmitrygr »

llm_nerd wrote: post #74

This feels like a straw that breaks the camel's back kind of moment. Apple has gotten away with a tremendous amount (being an astonishingly greedy company. All companies are de facto greedy, but Apple is just next level in its egregious entitlement), but there is simply zero way this stands. And FWIW, I'm an Apple fan and find Tim S a completely unsympathetic character. But seeing the hilariously absurd lengths that…

Does a gas station “get away” with charging for gas? They are selling a service and can charge anything they want for it. You are free not to use it, as is anyone else.

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#179

Post by 3jjj3jjj3 »

llm_nerd wrote: post #74

This feels like a straw that breaks the camel's back kind of moment. Apple has gotten away with a tremendous amount (being an astonishingly greedy company. All companies are de facto greedy, but Apple is just next level in its egregious entitlement), but there is simply zero way this stands. And FWIW, I'm an Apple fan and find Tim S a completely unsympathetic character. But seeing the hilariously absurd lengths that…

"being an astonishingly greedy company" and then writing "I'm an Apple fan" ... sound like a Stockholm syndrome or a cognitive dissonance

Re: US developers can offer non-app store purchasing, Apple still collect commission

#180

Post by danpalmer »

tick_tock_tick wrote: post #91
danpalmer wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So Apple will be collecting 27% (instead of 30%) for... what exactly? Off the top of my head... - Bandwidth - Running the App Store for users - Marketing the App Store - App review - Security efforts to keep malware off the store - Making App Store optimisation tools for developers There's a lot of moving parts to this. You could argue that none of this is necessary if you sideload, but distribution is worth a lot…

So basically nothing that companies couldn't do themselves if Apple didn't explicitly block it. You pay 27% for fuck all. > distribution is worth a lot in general to businesses No, digital distribution is worth so little it rounds to $0. > App Store is a good distribution channel in many ways It's the only distribution channel allowed so of course it's the "best" there is no competition allowed.

Digital distribution is much easier than burning discs, sending them to shops, etc. It's also not just the process but the visibility, a million tiny storefronts will be much harder for users to browse and likely result in fewer overall sales, than one massive storefront.

I get that there's no competition on iOS, but I was comparing to other ecosystems and mechanisms.

> So basically nothing that companies couldn't do themselves if Apple didn't explicitly block it. You pay 27% for fuck all.

No, you pay 27% for those services I mentioned. Those things aren't free if developers do them themselves. Developers may prefer to do some themselves because they think they can do them for cheaper, and in this case payments have been opened up so that there can be competition there – the DMA in the EU will do similar and I look forward to it.

You may disagree with the price (and I personally feel it's high), but these things cost real amounts of money to do. Not just this, but free app developers would also need to pay all these costs despite potentially having no revenue directly attributable to the app.

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