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We need technology that is less immersive, not more

filiph.net

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Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#171

Post by HWR_14 »

pj_mukh wrote: post #117
haswell wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But otherwise this warning is too early. When would the right time have been to warn people about the current generation of social media? We now have a ton of information about how technology will be used and abused, and we have a laundry list of known problems that we have not solved. Algorithmic social media and engagement-driven content are front and center. To me, the warning is appropriate not based on what ha…

The warnings started appropriately early in 2011, there should’ve been regulations in place by 2015. VR is still in 2006. Maybe let the first ad run in VR before you ascribe all the same problems to it.

I don't know. Meta has not had a history that encourages me to just see what happens in a space they are popularizing. I would like it if we could get ahead of it.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#172

Post by kgwxd »

ranprieur wrote: post #108

Photorealism does not equal immersion. Immersion happens in the mind, not the eyes. The games I've been most immersed in were made in the 90s, when the graphics were not as good but the gameplay was better.

I don't know if I've ever been more immersed in a game than Cataclysm Dark Days ahead, in ASCII mode. I usually die pretty early but, one time, I survived over a year. Built a huge base, a maxed out RV, explored all the lore I could find, and I was basically indestructible in standard combat. I ended up dying while driving really fast down a road I'd driven hundreds of times before, it was supposed to be clear. A big floating, laser-shooting eyeball hit my my RV. That's was over 5 years ago and I can still "remember" that world, the crazy things that happened in it, and all the scary monsters I fought, as they existed in my imagination at the time, prompted only by ASCII characters and short description of what they were supposed to represent. I guess it's like reading a good book, but I'm in control of the story. There's obviously other ascii based games similar to CDDA, but there's so much detail in the mechanics, so much you can do to affect yourself and the world in a meaningful way, and open-ended lore to spark the imagination, that it ends up being way more immersive than similar games. The game has tile sets you can use instead of ASCII, but I find they put my imagination into cartoon mode, which isn't as deep an experience for me.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#173

Post by trinsic2 »

throwaway4aday wrote: post #51
kamaradclimber wrote: post #2

Many of the most talented artists of our time don’t do any art — they work in advertising. I think the original quote is: The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads (source: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/06/12/click/ ) which is very close to article’s paraphrase

You could really say this about anything, the only moral to the story is that people have to work to pay the bills and the work that pays is the unglamorous stuff that needs doing. I believe this has been true throughout human history. The greatest artists and thinkers throughout history have earned their keep by providing services to the wealthy or teaching paying students (also often wealthy). There are upsides, th…

This made me think of Mural Art in the ancient past. Yes they were commissioned to do that art, but it still stands today in cathedrals and churches. Advertising comes and goes, nobody will notice when its gone.

Thats a problem with art today, IMHO.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#174

Post by esafak »

ranprieur wrote: post #108

Photorealism does not equal immersion. Immersion happens in the mind, not the eyes. The games I've been most immersed in were made in the 90s, when the graphics were not as good but the gameplay was better.

This is true of games, but not other applications. You need photorealism to have immersive video calls -- as if you are meeting in person. Here is a tech demo by Google; see how users respond to the realism:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q13CishCKXY

So we do need more immersive technology; just maybe not for games.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#175

Post by williamcotton »

slater- wrote: post #122
williamcotton wrote: post #75

When I write poetry, song lyrics, or music, I am fully immersed. The difference between video games and art is that I create the environment that I am immersed within. Sure, like English or any other language, I’ve inherited the cultural context for my artistic endeavors, but that context is a basic requirement for any sort of immersive activity.

This is an important distinction that I agree with. Glancing at your username I think I maybe know you through some mutual sf friends. The Page called they want a lot of their fernet back

Well, considering I’ve drank my fair share of fernet at The Page, I’d say you’re probably correct! Maybe we both know Kevin? Dan? Yani? (sp?) Big Ben?

Anyways, say hello from me to whomever we know in common!

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#176

Post by icapybara »

massysett wrote: post #47

"I hope you’ll agree that humanity has a variety of important engineering problems to solve, and nicer-looking graphics is quite low on that list." I used to sneer at the social value of entertainment. Then covid lockdowns hit. I spent a lot of time playing Factorio. When professional sports resumed playing (in empty stadiums, with fake crowd noise on the broadcasts) I was happy to sit on the couch after work and wat…

Engineering makes life easier, art makes life worth living.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#177

Post by Nevermark »

paulddraper wrote: post #76
massysett wrote: post #47

"I hope you’ll agree that humanity has a variety of important engineering problems to solve, and nicer-looking graphics is quite low on that list." I used to sneer at the social value of entertainment. Then covid lockdowns hit. I spent a lot of time playing Factorio. When professional sports resumed playing (in empty stadiums, with fake crowd noise on the broadcasts) I was happy to sit on the couch after work and wat…

How things look is important. Not as important as how they function, but still important. People, software programs, buildings, landscapes... appearance is information, about quality, about professionalism, about creativity, about attention to detail.

> How things look is important.

Could someone tell UI designers?

It is deeply troubling how much effort goes into manipulating people, or just pleasing managers who’s checkbox includes “flat design, because?”, and how little effort goes into actually making interfaces visually effortless to understand, features easy to discover, and with flexibility to be really usable from a user’s perspective.

Our bicycles for the mind have become conveyer belts for e-mall shopping.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#178

Post by Nevermark »

icapybara wrote: post #176
massysett wrote: post #47

"I hope you’ll agree that humanity has a variety of important engineering problems to solve, and nicer-looking graphics is quite low on that list." I used to sneer at the social value of entertainment. Then covid lockdowns hit. I spent a lot of time playing Factorio. When professional sports resumed playing (in empty stadiums, with fake crowd noise on the broadcasts) I was happy to sit on the couch after work and wat…

Engineering makes life easier, art makes life worth living.

True. When engineering and art are created in service and for the edification of others.

But they also create systems and media designed to extract as much value from humans as possible, by bypassing any mindfulness on their part. Regardless of any regretful impacts.

Not sure what I am saying, other than completing the picture as it is today.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#179

Post by filiph »

Nav_Panel wrote: post #116

Reminds me of: > A very common practice in videogames is to make your game visually immersive—that is to say, to visually portray the game’s elements in such a way that makes the player, to some extent, feel like they’re “really there.” The most obvious way this is employed is via a firstperson point-of-view camera, as seen in titles like Counter-Strike or Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. In these titles—especially in the hi…

I think that quote confuses intellectual immersion with sensory immersion. Those are separate things. Yes, you can be immersed in a chess game or a good book or a PacMan game, but it's not the same as having a VR headset on?

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#180

Post by filiph »

alpaca128 wrote: post #159

> There are new opportunities in things like e-Ink or transparent screens or IoT that can help people re-focus on the real world around them yet still reap the benefits of technology. This assumption that only games with nice graphics are immersive enough to somehow be a problem is just wrong. Before I had gaming hardware I wasted the exact same amount of time by re-reading books and comics, and it was quite immersiv…

> Before I had gaming hardware I wasted the exact same amount of time by re-reading books and comics, and it was quite immersive.

If so, you are in the minority. For most people, it is easier and more natural to put down a book and go do something else, than it is to quit a video game. Media consumption metrics seem to corroborate this.

> That sounds an awful lot like the good old "why do we build space rockets when people are starving".

If you want to simplify the article this way, sure, but then it's "why do we build ever-more immersive entertainment when we could build space rockets or try to address starvation". I think there's a difference. (And of course, even then we're losing all nuance of the actual article, but I guess there's no way around that.)

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