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In Europe, trains are full, and more are on the way

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Re: In Europe, trains are full, and more are on the way

#171
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To be fair Germany could at least reach France's or Italy's level first. I'm not sure Germany should be looking to Italy for advice on getting the trains to run on time.

Is Italy worse than Germany? That's hard to believe.

The service level in Italy was unbelievably bad for a time, then got much better, with occasional dramatic drops in quality.

The problem is that (like in many areas) our collective subjective memory of things lags behind reality, sometimes by decades.

Things get enshrined deep in culture (not only films, but day to day jokes and mechanical repetition of cultural self-flagellation).

I'm living in Italy for almost 20y now, coming from Switzerland. I came here in part because I wanted the experience of a more chaotic place, coming from the extreme order in Switzerland I found confining and suffocating.

Central Italy in the 2000s was a good mixture of chaos and infrastructure that worked ok in order to have a civilized life. Roads had potholes but they did exist, it's wasn't Madagascar level bad.

Yet italians complained and complained and kept saying that they were backward country and looked up at Germany or the Netherlands or whatnot.

Over the years everything got incrementally improved. Roundabouts got built, green grass inside roundabouts got actually cut, parking spaces started to be delimited and you no longer had to park your car in the mud alongside a road (but now you had to pay for parking in more places) ...

And also trains got better! Objectively better. And more expensive. They were incredibly dirt cheap 20 years ago, now they are not too expensive but it's an entirely different ballpark.

20 years ago my average experience from Pisa to Florence was to suffocate for 50 minutes because somebody let a puddle of vomit uncleaned in the train and there was no physical space to go to escape that because the train was so packed.

Now trains are much cleaner, more frequent, bigger, faster, ...

Occasionally you get stuck in a tunnel for a couple of hours because something breaks but hey it only happen to me once in the last 10 years and it happened 10 times the decade before, so improvement!!

Yet, locals still think nothing improved. Yesterday I had a conversation with Italians who thought they were the country with the worst infrastructure. The thing is, most people here live in an imaginary world.

Even when they do travel abroad, they don't update their beliefs about that stuff. It's a bit like identity politics. They watch TV journalism shows that show how well executed (cherry picked) public systems in other countries work, and bask in self-flagellation. While the other identity group declares how Italians are the best in the world and that nothing approaches their virtues etc. these two camps (I struggle identifying them as left and right anymore) affect each other and make their position even stronger.

Re: In Europe, trains are full, and more are on the way

#172

In UK a train from London to Edinburgh (North of UK, Scotland) costs more than a plane. I just don't understand how that makes any sense, how can a train be more expensive than a plane.

Rails have much more limited capacity. Train costs in the UK are mostly dominated by demand exceeding supply, and supply being hard to add. Also you don't have to maintain tracks in the air, and airlines have less militant unions.

The final big hammer is of course competition. Airlines have lots, rail companies don't.

Re: In Europe, trains are full, and more are on the way

#173
post #3

Trains are pretty awesome, especially in small Europe. Flying always comes with security hassle. A train is just: get in/get out. If Europe would just spent more money on infrastructure. We have trains in Germany that can do 350km/h but I've yet to ride one that goes faster than 200, probably because the rails aren't what they're used to be. Then we have the Germany Ticket. A 50€/month subscription to all regional tr…

This is not true. I fly freely ViennaGermany and it has always been better,faster and cheaper than trains. There is absolutely 0 issue with security.

Re: In Europe, trains are full, and more are on the way

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not build parallel tracks, but with the same gauge? Jevon's paradox [1] probably. The most profitable part of the rail system will grow to crowd out and interfere with the rest. By keeping it different gauges, they all operate independent of each other's incentives. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox

I don't really see this dynamic working in rail. In Japan, many of the companies operate trains on two gauges. People read too much into this, it's mostly just historical reasons. Most slow Japanese rail has a quite narrow gauge which is less suitable for high speed trains. The interoperability benefit is limited since you typically won't want to operate both Shinkanzens and local trains on the same rail. Having diff…

> The interoperability benefit is limited since you typically won't want to operate both Shinkanzens and local trains on the same rail.

> Having different gauges provides no real benefit.

The only place it would be beneficial to have the same gauge would be at stations, to have fewer, more flexibile platforms and smaller train stations.

Re: In Europe, trains are full, and more are on the way

#175
post #3

Trains are pretty awesome, especially in small Europe. Flying always comes with security hassle. A train is just: get in/get out. If Europe would just spent more money on infrastructure. We have trains in Germany that can do 350km/h but I've yet to ride one that goes faster than 200, probably because the rails aren't what they're used to be. Then we have the Germany Ticket. A 50€/month subscription to all regional tr…

> Trains are pretty awesome, especially in small Europe.

Trains aren't really about the region's size. They are about the region's population density and the volume of travel demand between somewhat close urban centers (max 600/800km).

> Flying always comes with security hassle.

Nowadays trains also come with security hassles. For example, Spain's RENFE enforces security checks, complete with baggage scanning and metal detectors, to board high-speed lines.

The key difference is where train stations are located vs where airports are located. Due to historical reasons, nowadays most european cities have train stations essentially in their city centers, whereas airports tend to be >50km out of the city. This means that the door-to-door travel time for any flight must include a >50km trip to the outskirts of a city for then to way out the mandatory 60 to 90 minute boarding process.

Re: In Europe, trains are full, and more are on the way

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally my main gripe is not so much the speed as going to higher speed is probably less efficient hence more expensive. My main gripe is the price (I am poor by european standards). For example going from Paris to Napoli only by train is currently above 300 euros whereas you can find a flight for 40 euros. I am ready to pay around 100 euros for that. Recently there was sleeper car train from Paris to Milano which…

This is because of the extreme subsidies air traffic receives. If it were not for these rail would be very competitive.

> This is because of the extreme subsidies air traffic receives.

I don't think so. Railway lines are the epitome of lost fund subsidies by the state. You need to build and maintain a new line for each direct connection you want to create. The construction cost of a railway line, let alone a line that supports high-speed rail, eclipses the cost of a brand new airport.

Once a railway line is in place, getting a train to travel from point A to B costs peanuts.

Re: In Europe, trains are full, and more are on the way

#177
post #11
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion the main "low hanging fruit" Europe has with trains are international birders, especially if they're trying to compete with flying. Trains in Poland work great, trains in Germany work pretty well but every train I've taken between Poland and Germany has been delayed. The standard thing is that while you're in Poland they claim the delay is because of previous delays in Germany and while you're in German…

German trains wishing to enter Switzerland need to wait at the border so the DB’s, err, _erratic_ scheduling doesn’t perturb the much more rigorous Swiss system. My experience of German trains is one train arriving on time, to find my connection is delayed, but actually leaving earlier because the same train 1h before was 54 minutes late and I could get that instead.

> German trains wishing to enter Switzerland need to wait at the border so the DB’s, err, _erratic_ scheduling doesn’t perturb the much more rigorous Swiss system.

I'm rather skeptic of this take. Railway operators provide services by reserving track sections and train stations in specific time windows which take into account travel speed and scheduling. Rail track capacity is typically reserved for periods of over a year. If german trains run on time in Germany and swiss trains run on time in Switzerland, then it sounds like germany's trains being delayed when entering swiss lines is an impedance problem caused by the way the swiss infrastructure manager is handling german trains.

Re: In Europe, trains are full, and more are on the way

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally my main gripe is not so much the speed as going to higher speed is probably less efficient hence more expensive. My main gripe is the price (I am poor by european standards). For example going from Paris to Napoli only by train is currently above 300 euros whereas you can find a flight for 40 euros. I am ready to pay around 100 euros for that. Recently there was sleeper car train from Paris to Milano which…

This is because of the extreme subsidies air traffic receives. If it were not for these rail would be very competitive.

I have not hear this point before, please would you mind to elaborate, if possible with sources to share? Thanks.

Re: In Europe, trains are full, and more are on the way

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally my main gripe is not so much the speed as going to higher speed is probably less efficient hence more expensive. My main gripe is the price (I am poor by european standards). For example going from Paris to Napoli only by train is currently above 300 euros whereas you can find a flight for 40 euros. I am ready to pay around 100 euros for that. Recently there was sleeper car train from Paris to Milano which…

This is because of the extreme subsidies air traffic receives. If it were not for these rail would be very competitive.

Who subsidizes the air traffic?

Re: In Europe, trains are full, and more are on the way

#180
post #177
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German trains wishing to enter Switzerland need to wait at the border so the DB’s, err, _erratic_ scheduling doesn’t perturb the much more rigorous Swiss system. My experience of German trains is one train arriving on time, to find my connection is delayed, but actually leaving earlier because the same train 1h before was 54 minutes late and I could get that instead.

> German trains wishing to enter Switzerland need to wait at the border so the DB’s, err, _erratic_ scheduling doesn’t perturb the much more rigorous Swiss system. I'm rather skeptic of this take. Railway operators provide services by reserving track sections and train stations in specific time windows which take into account travel speed and scheduling. Rail track capacity is typically reserved for periods of over a…

70% of German trains that arrive at their destination are “delayed” (30 min or more).

A train that never arrives is not counted as delayed. About 30% of German trains do not arrive at their destination.

In Switzerland, the stats are single low percentage digits.

After multiple ultimatums, Switzerland stopped allowing German trains into Switzerland. The most popular connection between Switzerland and Germany (Zurich-Munich) has been kept but is now operated by Switzerland even though most of the ride is in Germany.

This is shameful and a lose-lose for all parties, but necessary.

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