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No dogs were harmed in the making of this app

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Re: No dogs were harmed in the making of this app

#171
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programmers calling themselves software engineers suddenly is a very recent phenomenon (barely a decade). Dunno who pushed that, but it's mostly basically (cognitively difficult) Lego at this point. That said, it's also on the order of a hundred years younger a discipline and our theory is not so well developed.

My dad called himself a 'computer software engineer' in the early '90s. I don't think it's only a decade old.

In the 90s it sounded pretentious and people used to joke about it. In the early days of Google they tried to label themselves as engineers to set themselves above the rest of silicon valley. It was a way to try to signal that their work was somehow more technical

Re: No dogs were harmed in the making of this app

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An electrician who designs a complex light panel using 120VAC for use in a habitable or public building needs to submit the plans to the building department to get a permit and certify that it's not a fire hazard. You need to be a Licensed Engineer™ to do certain levels of certification. People certified to be licensed engineers didn't necessarily graduate from a School of Engineering at a famous university that is a…

I'm confused, is the electrician in this example the Licensed Engineer(tm)? They definitely have to be licensed, since they can burn your house down if they don't know what they're doing. And checking that the plans aren't a fire hazard isn't done by an electrical engineer, is it? I definitely wouldn't trust the electrical engineers I went to school with to do DIY home wiring, by the same token.

absolutely, you nailed it! "collegy" engineers don't know a damn thing about safety in the home, and what causes electrical fires. They know kinda ("resistance results in heat") but they don't know specifically a zillion little gotchas that have killed thousands of people in electrical fires.

if you want to cut a hole in your wall to put in a window, it could be as easy as cutting a hole and putting in a window. Or, it could be that it's a "load bearing" wall, and you need to put a wide I-beam over the new window to safely redistribute/bear the load that the formerly intact wall was carrying. Or, you could have chosen a spot on the wall that has a column/pillar that's holding the roof up. Probably you'd choose a different spot, but if wanted that spot you could hire some engineers to figure out a new set of "cantilevers" or "flying buttresses" or (i'm not this type of engineer, I'm just throwing around words).

As the work you do becomes more and more dangerous to more and more people, you need somebody with higher levels of certification/licensure to approve the plan.

an electrician, who has a license, is not an engineer, but a good electrician could become one if she wanted, it would require study and exam passing. Some electrical work an electrician is allowed to do, they can "self certify", but the city might spot inspect it. The next level of complexity they perform the work, but a building inspector needs to inspect. The next level of complexity, the plans need to be certified and approved in advance.

I'm sort of making this up, piecing it together how steam fitting is done (that's mechanical engineering), how air handling is done (also mechanical engineering), plumbing, etc. But this is the general scheme.

some of this is legacy disputes left over from the 19th century. When they were inventing electrical circuits, everybody was an engineer and everybody could do everything, and people just invented stuff on the spot and tried it. After enough people died, it was decided we needed standards. And slowly a white collar/blue collar sort of distinction started to emerge, for work that required calculus vs work that requires knowledge of lots of specific requirements.

Calculus people design cars and planes with smooth sleek shapes, but those items can't be constructed without the other type of engineer saying "hey, that's not strong enough"

Re: No dogs were harmed in the making of this app

#173
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "software engineers aren't really engineers" is putting "real engineering" on a pedestal that is borne of ignorance. Hillel Wayne's engineer interviews were eye-opening on this: https://www.hillelwayne.com/post/are-we-really-engineers/

Programmers calling themselves software engineers suddenly is a very recent phenomenon (barely a decade). Dunno who pushed that, but it's mostly basically (cognitively difficult) Lego at this point. That said, it's also on the order of a hundred years younger a discipline and our theory is not so well developed.

> barely a decade

Yeah, no.

Re: No dogs were harmed in the making of this app

#174
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "software engineers aren't really engineers" is putting "real engineering" on a pedestal that is borne of ignorance. Hillel Wayne's engineer interviews were eye-opening on this: https://www.hillelwayne.com/post/are-we-really-engineers/

Programmers calling themselves software engineers suddenly is a very recent phenomenon (barely a decade). Dunno who pushed that, but it's mostly basically (cognitively difficult) Lego at this point. That said, it's also on the order of a hundred years younger a discipline and our theory is not so well developed.

Try longer than my career (approaching 30 years in the business), often pushed by the business and kicked into high gear with the rapid need for development resources with the combination of Y2K mitigation and the first dot-com boom.

Yes, there are a lot of "developers". But there are also software engineers, even if our engineering craft is less-well developed by the standards of civil engineering or mechanical engineering. I understand engineering organizations (like those in Canada) who oppose the use of the term "software engineer" because there's no common code of practice or standards in the same way that those who wear the iron ring claim is incorrect.

I think that we, as a profession, need a code of ethics (and the ACM has a good one, https://ethics.acm.org/code-of-ethics/) and the application of software in certain cases should absolutely be regulated the same way that the various physical engineering practices are (healthcare, AI, finance, legal applications) so that there are consequences for the businesses and potentially the software engineers involved with those businesses when they cause harm (see sentencing guideline software in the US; see the contract that developed the Royal Mail "audit" software that could never work as advertised; see the rampant fraud that is crypto; see the abuse of generative models to software-wash copyright violations).

But the lack of regulatory bodies does not mean that there's not a practice of engineering involved, it just means that there's no regulatory body that governs said practice.

Re: No dogs were harmed in the making of this app

#175
post #37

Several times throughout my career I've been hit with something erroring and it just being silent and completely stumping us. No error output, nothing. In a lot of these situations, we were able to track it down to some low level third party library doing `catch (e) {}`. The first one happened early in my career, and it was a good lesson. I don't take any error for granted, at the bare minimum I log it. You just neve…

This recently happened to me with DRF and JWTs -- the JWTs were invalid due to sporadic timing issues and we were unable to log in. There was no indication that anything was going on since DRF was swallowing the validation errors and returning a generic error, so I had to manually go down and add logging to find out what was even happening.

Re: No dogs were harmed in the making of this app

#176
post #87

I've developed a real distaste for the people whining about how we aren't real engineers and we "just" need to solve that by working more like real engineers and having all these massive up-front design meetings and making tons more plans, etc. etc. It betrays a profound misunderstanding of the situation. The other engineering disciplines don't work like that because they're just soooo much more professional than us.…

[deleted]

Re: No dogs were harmed in the making of this app

#177
post #87

I've developed a real distaste for the people whining about how we aren't real engineers and we "just" need to solve that by working more like real engineers and having all these massive up-front design meetings and making tons more plans, etc. etc. It betrays a profound misunderstanding of the situation. The other engineering disciplines don't work like that because they're just soooo much more professional than us.…

I think people who think software engineering isn't real engineering, will be shocked at how much "real" engineering is just people plugging numbers into software
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