Impacts of lack of sleep • Hacker News Board

Re: Impacts of lack of sleep

#171

Post by taneq » Mon, Oct 09, 2023, 1:39 PM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #147

jmkd wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish people would understand that "just get up early" simply does not and cannot work for a significant portion of the population (20-50% depending on which study you choose). Therefore it is aggravating advice to constantly receive, from those for whom it worked, to those for whom it won't.

I find your comment unhelpful. We have no indication that the person being responded to has a hard limitation vs suboptimal habits. Not giving him advice because it might not help someone is the worst because it guarantees that it will not help him.

I find your comment unhelpful. Which is okay, you know, not every comment is gonna work for every person.

Have you tried mindfulness? /s

Re: Impacts of lack of sleep

#172

Post by josiahpeters » Mon, Oct 09, 2023, 1:40 PM UTC

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #155

quectophoton wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm probably your complete opposite on this lol. I don't know how tolerance plays into this, but I drink like 1L or more of coffee a day, and have done so for more than a decade, and I have never felt any difficulty falling asleep. Well, besides some reluctance during weekdays because I just don't want the next day to arrive, because of work, so I sometimes just go to sleep later and suffer the consequences for the n…

Do you have an attention disorder? I know from some people they experience caffeine differently. Although the mechanisms are beyond me.

Diagnosed ADHD person here. Among my acquaintances I’m known as a person who will accept coffee any time off day when I come visit. I don’t that because I really enjoy the flavor off coffee and it doesn’t seem to affect my sleep.

Anecdotally, I’ve had conversations with more than 50 people who say caffeine does not affect them who likely have ADHD or some kind of attention disorder.

For example, I was at a gas station this weekend buying coffee during a small road trip. The cashier and I we’re making small talk that it was early and I wanted my morning coffee, they said oh caffeine doesn’t affect me. When I hear something like that I usually ask if them if they have ADHD and they’ll typically respond with a yes.

There is definitely bias in my non-scientific survey, I only ask people who make the comment about caffeine not affecting them.

Re: Impacts of lack of sleep

#173

Post by hotpotamus » Mon, Oct 09, 2023, 1:51 PM UTC

petemir wrote: post #34

guidoism wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m fairly confident that the lack of sleep during my first child’s first two years permanently altered my brain in way that has seriously affected my ability to do my job. I think there is research to back my claim that sleep can change your brain just as trauma does.

Another anecdote, but I remember someone here commenting that after several days without sleep he got his amygdala (maybe?) physically damaged and that permanently f-ed up his sleep schedule. As a terminal procrastinator who frequently pulls all-nighters (this year I even got to two in 3 days) I was terrified (and apparently decided to never comply with any deadline anymore, but that's another story).

I wonder how possible it is to permanently damage the brain without physically impacting it or rooting around in there. There are studies that show visible changes in the amygdala and other structures in the brain after 8 weeks of 15 minutes per day of mindfullness meditation for instance. One "side effect" of it for me has been noticeable memory improvements. The brain changes in response to stimuli for sure, but the changes may be reversible.

Re: Impacts of lack of sleep

#174

Post by sgtnoodle » Mon, Oct 09, 2023, 2:00 PM UTC

madaxe_again wrote: post #163

KoftaBob wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My wife still manages 12+ hours per day If she didn't start sleeping those number of hours until after having the baby, this sounds like it could be postpartum depression. I'd recommend she gets evaluated by a psychiatrist to confirm, of course.

She’s always slept like that. I’m in therapy, and am considering starting antidepressants, as the whole shebang is making me suicidal - and I think it’s mostly just the constant, gnawing exhaustion - I feel like I have flies crawling around behind my eyes. The sun pisses me off. I shout and swear at the stars at night. Poor kid is stuck in the middle. Doing my best for both of them, I really am, but I gravely underes…

I'll reiterate what others have said. It's unusual that your wife is sleeping 12 hours. I don't know the details of your situation, but my initial impression is that it's woefully unfair. If the baby needs tending in the middle of the night, whoever's slept the most recently should be the one getting up.

Antidepressants are serious business. If you're actually just exhausted, it seems like you would be better off changing your environment rather than your brain chemistry. My wife has been on antidepressants since suffering from postpartum depression from our first child. Her current prescription seems to have her leveled out, but has also suppressed important aspects of her personality and perhaps even memory. This past year we've been in a rut where she refuses to even discuss changing anything because it's easier for her than confronting her underlying trauma.

For what it's worth, if you're fly-crawling-suicidal tired, it's better for you and your family to let your baby scream in their crib for an hour or two while you go sleep in a car. It isn't going to traumatize your baby, and might even be healthy for them to learn how to self-soothe. If you can afford it, it's also ok for you to occasionally take off a night and stay alone in a hotel, and let your wife take care of the baby. It would be more effective than antidepressants, assuming exhaustion is truly the root issue.

Re: Impacts of lack of sleep

#175

Post by stephenitis » Mon, Oct 09, 2023, 2:05 PM UTC

lloeki wrote: post #96

The post is mostly covering "mind" and "metabolic" things, but the effect extends to "body" things: - more likely to avoid hurtful situations (lower attention, zone out events, micro sleep events, reflexes diminished). - more likely to hurt yourself when such accidents occur - once hurt, physical recovery is severely hampered Car accidents are the obvious ones here but it extends to simple things like accidental cuts…

Is there a citation or source on REM deprivation causing neurons to die?

Like how long? How did they test this?

Re: Impacts of lack of sleep

#176

Post by stephenitis » Mon, Oct 09, 2023, 2:08 PM UTC

goda90 wrote: post #156

lloeki wrote: post #96

The post is mostly covering "mind" and "metabolic" things, but the effect extends to "body" things: - more likely to avoid hurtful situations (lower attention, zone out events, micro sleep events, reflexes diminished). - more likely to hurt yourself when such accidents occur - once hurt, physical recovery is severely hampered Car accidents are the obvious ones here but it extends to simple things like accidental cuts…

I've notice I'm more prone to pimples and canker sores when I'm sleep deprived.

Canker sores for me happen if I'm 2-4 days of reduced sleep hours.

Supplementing lysine has been helpful in reducing canker sores over a long period of time. Cutting my incidences from 1 a month to 1 every 2-4 months. It also seems to effect how quickly it heals.

Re: Impacts of lack of sleep

#177

Post by ap99 » Mon, Oct 09, 2023, 2:10 PM UTC

madaxe_again wrote: post #73

kungfufrog wrote: post #20

Resonates with anyone that has had children. Biggest impact for both my wife and I was overall sleep quality/quantity and sacrificing sleep for a modicum of personal time at the end of the day.

My wife still manages 12+ hours per day - I get about 4-6. She wonders why I am gradually becoming irrationally irritable, as in her view being overtired is something that is easily controlled. Easily said when you get to sleep in to 1pm or later every day. I find myself picking fights with anyone and everyone, even inanimate objects. I know it’s crazy. We don’t have time together any more - I just fall asleep the mo…

Sounds like you're taking an unfair amount of the burden and you're suffering as a result.

I'd have an honest discussion about this wit her.

Spending every waking hour with the baby doesn't entitle her to steal your sleep. If she got 10 and you got 6-8 hours, that would make a huge difference to you and to your family.

Don't let her gaslight you into thinking working a job to support the family and doing home repair and maintenance isn't as mentally and physically taxing as caring for a baby.

Re: Impacts of lack of sleep

#178

Post by j_mo » Mon, Oct 09, 2023, 2:17 PM UTC

MarkusQ wrote: post #7

mmanfrin wrote: post #3

I'd wager most people here who don't get enough sleep aren't doing so out of some sort of grindset mentality, but because they simply cannot. I find it very hard to fall asleep, nearly impossible to sleep in (a consequence of getting older?), and more interrupted sleep. I'm reticent to try drugs to enable sleep because I've heard that the sleep they provide is not true sleep.

Physical labor. Or exercise. If you push yourself to the point where you're physically tired, you'll sleep like a rock. If it doesn't, you're either not pushing hard enough or you ought to see a doctor.

Never worked for me, I think if you're physically fit, being physically tired has no correlation on sleep. Since 12y/o I've struggled to sleep before 1-2am, and since 14y/o I've exercised a frankly ridiculous amount.

14-18yo I went to the gym 1hr/day every weekday, boxing 1-2hrs 3x/wk, karate 1hr 2x/wk.

18yo+ I've boxed, run 30-40 miles/wk (some 3/4hr runs in there too leading up to ultras), climbed 2-10hrs/wk, and gym 2-3x/wk for the last 5 years although that schedule and activity level has varied since I have no real reason to kill myself training now that I don't compete in anything.

None of the above have an impact on sleep or ability to fall asleep, I have taken weeks off due to injury or months off due to burnout after a 12hr race, and my sleep schedule hasn't changed. Still tired-ish around 5-7, then 7-2am find it impossible to fall asleep, followed by 5-6hrs sleep and repeat. I 100% agree with the guy who replied to you that got heavily downvoted that "just exercise" is a vastly oversimplified response to the complex issues most people have with sleep. Not everybody's sleep issues are due to an inactive lifestyle, and I'd bet that is not the case for the majority of people.

Re: Impacts of lack of sleep

#179

Post by thebigspacefuck » Mon, Oct 09, 2023, 2:32 PM UTC

InSteady wrote: post #127

The caffeine trap can be particularly insidious, especially for those of us who metabolize it slower. Its half-life can range from as low as 1.5 hours all the way up to 9.5 hours. So on the high end of that scale, if you drink 3 cups of coffee, containing say 300mg of caffeine, between 7 and 10 AM then you still have around 100mg of caffeine kicking around in your system when 11pm rolls around, clogging up your adeno…

I believe the 1.5 hour half life is only for smokers

Edit: the mechanism seems to be due to inducing Cytochrome P450 1A2, an enzyme responsible for caffeine metabolism and many other drugs. This is also induced by diet with cruciferous vegetables and medications like Prilosec/Omeprazole. So if you find yourself sleeping better or needing more caffeine to get through the day, ingestion of these could potentially explain it. Likewise it can be inhibited by foods such as cumin or turmeric and medications, so if you notice more energy after turmeric supplementation or heightened caffeine sensitivity after eating more Indian food or your sleep is impacted when you start taking oral contraceptives, this could potentially explain why.

See inducers and inhibitors here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYP1A2

Re: Impacts of lack of sleep

#180

Post by elteto » Mon, Oct 09, 2023, 2:32 PM UTC

hnthrowaway0315 wrote: post #44

xyzelement wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any parent will tell you that having kids is not going to help your sleep, but most parents find sacrifice unequivocally worth it on the net. Not sure if this is truly what you meant but I would find it highly abnormal that a child does not bring your sufficient joy and meaning that would offset sleep loss.

I have a few bullet points about this: 1. Most people would never say bad things about parenting because it makes them look like demons. I basically tell my friends and colleagues that it is OK and I'm still not sure whether it worths it or not. That's as far honest as I'm willing, although it is pretty close to truth nowadays. I was a lot more snarky a year ago. 2. Humans are very good at adapting. If you told me 3…

On point 3, I've never met a parent (at least a first time parent) who knew exactly what having a child would be like. I don't know that people can have a life style that "fits" children without having them. Of course, with such a subjective topic I'm sure I'm bound to be mistaken.

In my experience, the original excitement and expectation fade away slowly after birth and is replaced by paternal/maternal love, as well as different excitement and expectations. Then over a longer time, you start understanding how profoundly your life is being reordered and how you've become a different person, for both the positive and negative. No one can know this a priori.