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Floorp – A customisable Firefox fork from Japan

floorp.app

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Re: Floorp – A customisable Firefox fork from Japan

#171
post #166
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look up "Han Unification" - Unicode reuses codepoints for characters from Chinese and Japanese (also traditional Korean, but those characters aren't really used in modern Korean so it's much less of an issue), even though these characters actually look quite different. So any given font will look wrong in either China or Japan. Since China is the larger market, almost all "international" applications plump for a font…

Sure, I was wondering if there were any other issues. On my phone I just added Japanese as a language and it now prefers those. Windows seems to support it fine too, as does Chrome on Linux. I guess there are problems if you try to use two languages in the same application.

> On my phone I just added Japanese as a language and it now prefers those. Windows seems to support it fine too, as does Chrome on Linux.

Is the text you're reading getting rendered in Japanese characters? Or is it getting written in similar-but-not-quite-the-same (and thus something you can use, but irritating to do so) Chinese characters?

Re: Floorp – A customisable Firefox fork from Japan

#173
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be surprised if most people don't feel some shame when a sibling or other close relative does something bad? Heck, most of us are effectively different people than we were in the past. And we very much feel some shame when we find out something bad we did back when.

The statement that I was replying to was about feeling shame for actions by other humans anywhere, anytime. I think there is goal post movement in your response. Do you feel shame when you read about someone stealing a bike in a far country whose capital you wouldn’t know ? You must be in despair over all the crimes committed by humanity every hour

I am merely pointing at the trivial connections to others. Hinting at the idea that any line in the sand between you and others that you will feel an identity with is a line you will draw. That others will draw it somewhere else should be no surprise.

Do I also think it is arbitrary? Yeah. But I am also ok not feeling shame at stupid crap my immediate family has done. I just have no surprise that others do.

Re: Floorp – A customisable Firefox fork from Japan

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shift-JIS is still a pain in the ass. I recently encountered two applications that only work properly in Japanese Windows, and in any other locale will just display mojibake. And these are modern applications, made in the last year. How is that even possible in 2023?

Because most (esp. Japanese) people don't know how to use Unicode properly, or don't care. They just build without defining UNICODE and naively assume your local codepage to be CP932 because 99% of their target audience is exactly this (and hence seemingly unaffected).

Well, Unicode's Han unification process kind of screwed Japan, so that's somewhat understandable.

It makes it hard to use Unicode for historical documents with older variants, documents using more than one CJK language (like talking about Chinese in Japanese), and worst of all, a lot of theoretically-compatible CJK fonts look wrong because they chose Chinese glyphs.

There's many ways Unicode is an improvement over what came before, but they screwed up with Han unification.

Re: Floorp – A customisable Firefox fork from Japan

#175
post #171
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I was wondering if there were any other issues. On my phone I just added Japanese as a language and it now prefers those. Windows seems to support it fine too, as does Chrome on Linux. I guess there are problems if you try to use two languages in the same application.

> On my phone I just added Japanese as a language and it now prefers those. Windows seems to support it fine too, as does Chrome on Linux. Is the text you're reading getting rendered in Japanese characters? Or is it getting written in similar-but-not-quite-the-same (and thus something you can use, but irritating to do so) Chinese characters?

The former. You don't even need it as the primary language, secondary is enough. You can also set the language per app. (Samsung)

Re: Floorp – A customisable Firefox fork from Japan

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not even about common bugs, it's about design choices. PC players are accustomed to being able to tweak their games. But in Japanese games you either can't tweak anything or the tweaks just don't work because the developers hardcoded settings in the executable (DMC4 SE as an example). >WHICH PC game has been free of bugs in recent times anyway? Most indie games that I played. AAA-games are bug fests not because…

> Most indie games that I played. Fewer features, fewer bugs. > AAA-games are bug fests not because of the platform but because of the negligence by the developers. Meanwhile most AAAs in the last couple years from Japan have been flawless on consoles since launch day.

>Fewer features It's not like AAA games have an astonishing amount of features. Quantity over quality is currently driving AAA gaming market with its live service model. Meanwhile an indie game must be feature rich to grab attention because there are thousands of games to choose from.

>most AAAs in the last couple years from Japan Fewer games, fewer opportunities for messing up. On PC FromSoft games had problems with optimization (Elden Ring).

Re: Floorp – A customisable Firefox fork from Japan

#177
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, I’m surprised that you think the average person feels shame over the actions of bad people. I would have said sadness in sympathy to the victims and disgust for the bad person

You wouldn't feel shame for if your kid murdered someone?

There's obviously a big difference between your own kid and some other kid. When my own kids do something terrible, I'm obviously going to reflect on whether I did something wrong as well when I raised and educated them and hence might be ashamed of that. But why would I be ashamed when my neighbor's kids murdered someone?

Re: Floorp – A customisable Firefox fork from Japan

#178
post #165
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate?

Look up "Han Unification" - Unicode reuses codepoints for characters from Chinese and Japanese (also traditional Korean, but those characters aren't really used in modern Korean so it's much less of an issue), even though these characters actually look quite different. So any given font will look wrong in either China or Japan. Since China is the larger market, almost all "international" applications plump for a font…

As someone who has worked a lot with CJK in Unicode, I can not support the sentiment that Unicode uniquely screws Japanese. You'll always have to use an appropriate font for the task, the encoding won't help you. Yes, the idea of "Han Unification" was somewhat naive and even questionable, and one might ask whether it is still being applied to new codepoints, and there are some weirdities in CJK encoding (but those apply across all concerned languages and are not unique to Japanese).

Then again, it is a difficult taks. For example, there are three ways to write the first (topmost) stroke of 言: as a slanted dot (now PRC standard), as a short vertical (very common in pre-war prints, still used in Japan) or as a short horizontal (also very common). Sure, one can make three codepoints out of these, no big deal. But then 言 occurs in a gazillion of other characters, as in 說這語信 and so on; all of these characters would then need to get codepoints of their own (which btw is exactly what happened with 說 vs 説 (and incidentally 说)). It gets worse when you consider that another one or two components of a given character may also have two or three variants, then you might get 3x2=6 or 3x2x3=18 codepoints for what most people consider a single character. And did I mention we already have around 100'000 codepoints for CJK Ideographs? That number would multiply considerably.

Although I've worked extensively on these problems—what is a variant, what deserves a codepoint—all I've found that there can and should be guidelines, but there's no very hard and fast rule. And I'm afraid variant selectors are a cop-out, not a solution.

Re: Floorp – A customisable Firefox fork from Japan

#179
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look up "Han Unification" - Unicode reuses codepoints for characters from Chinese and Japanese (also traditional Korean, but those characters aren't really used in modern Korean so it's much less of an issue), even though these characters actually look quite different. So any given font will look wrong in either China or Japan. Since China is the larger market, almost all "international" applications plump for a font…

As someone who has worked a lot with CJK in Unicode, I can not support the sentiment that Unicode uniquely screws Japanese. You'll always have to use an appropriate font for the task, the encoding won't help you. Yes, the idea of "Han Unification" was somewhat naive and even questionable, and one might ask whether it is still being applied to new codepoints, and there are some weirdities in CJK encoding (but those ap…

> You'll always have to use an appropriate font for the task, the encoding won't help you.

In practice in the pre-unicode world fonts were encoding-specific, so the encoding did help. When you viewed a Japanese document it would be in a Japanese encoding and you'd get a Japanese font, when you viewed a Chinese document it would be in a Chinese encoding and you'd get a Chinese font, and when you mixed up your encodings you'd get something that was obviously broken even to someone doesn't speak Chinese or Japanese.

> but those apply across all concerned languages and are not unique to Japanese

They're de facto unique to Japanese; Chinese support "won" in most international contexts, so "CJK" codepoints look fine in Chinese, and those codepoints are rarely used in Korean (mainly in historical documents) so having them rendered "wrong" there matters less in everyday life. Admittedly looking at another article that hit HN today I could believe Bulgaria gets equally shafted (and is probably, sadly, less capable of sustaining a "made in Bulgaria" software ecosystem than Japan is).

> Sure, one can make three codepoints out of these, no big deal. But then 言 occurs in a gazillion of other characters, as in 說這語信 and so on; all of these characters would then need to get codepoints of their own (which btw is exactly what happened with 說 vs 説 (and incidentally 说)). It gets worse when you consider that another one or two components of a given character may also have two or three variants, then you might get 3x2=6 or 3x2x3=18 codepoints for what most people consider a single character. And did I mention we already have around 100'000 codepoints for CJK Ideographs? That number would multiply considerably.

You don't have to add 18 variants, only 3, and that's the worst case. We don't need codepoints for letters that are half-Japanese half-Korean, or every other conceivable variant. But using Unicode shouldn't be a regression from using Shift-JIS.

Re: Floorp – A customisable Firefox fork from Japan

#180
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look up "Han Unification" - Unicode reuses codepoints for characters from Chinese and Japanese (also traditional Korean, but those characters aren't really used in modern Korean so it's much less of an issue), even though these characters actually look quite different. So any given font will look wrong in either China or Japan. Since China is the larger market, almost all "international" applications plump for a font…

As someone who has worked a lot with CJK in Unicode, I can not support the sentiment that Unicode uniquely screws Japanese. You'll always have to use an appropriate font for the task, the encoding won't help you. Yes, the idea of "Han Unification" was somewhat naive and even questionable, and one might ask whether it is still being applied to new codepoints, and there are some weirdities in CJK encoding (but those ap…

Well they did screw Japanese but gave Hong Kong/Taiwan the full set of traditional characters. Though that seems politically motivated.

I wonder why they couldn't have done a composition system like Hangeul?

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