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TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

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Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#171

Post by coredog64 »

photochemsyn wrote: post #153
rjzzleep wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who don't understand what OP just wrote should look at what just happened to the South Korean semiconductor market. over 36% plunge in exports[] and that samsungs memory profit dropped 95%[]. Yes, they depend on ASML, but ASML itself was dependent on IP from TSMC engineers. TSMC already announced that they will stop applying for subsidies from the Chip Act[] in the US recently because the US keeps changing wha…

The stated reason for delaying the fab construction is a lack of skilled labor in the USA, which does make sense - that's what happens when you hollow out domestic manufacturing in the name of increased corporate profits from outsourcing. > "“There is an insufficient amount of skilled workers” with the expertise to build a chip factory, TSMC chairman Mark Liu complained during a call with analysts. The executive warn…

Insufficient at the price TSMC is willing to pay for all those hours.

The neighborhood around ASU in Tempe, AZ is chock full of fabs that have been built or expanded recently. Please take the “hollowed out workforce” to a different discussion where it actually applies.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#172

Post by arlort »

rottencupcakes wrote: post #64
alecco wrote: post #62

This smells of government-subsidized terrible ideas. German energy costs, land costs, lack of water, crazy high taxes, and anti-business governments. OTOH Netherlands would make a much better option in almost every angle. And add having ASML engineers around the corner.

As a dumb American, can you help explain how energy costs, land costs, and water supply can be that significantly different across an open border?

> As a dumb American

This is one of the most annoying openings to a sentence you could device, just fyi

As to the why. (With the premise that the comment you're replying to is overstating it)

An open border is pretty irrelevant to all of the above, more relevant is that both are in the EU. So you can somewhat imagine them as US states on steroids. They set their own taxes with a large degree of freedom, devise their own policies with a large degree of freedom etc

- energy costs are a factor of market price and taxes, the electricity market is the same but taxes on energy can impact differently - land costs are fully dependent on factors that have nothing to do with open borders or the EU, just local/national taxes and zoning etc - water supply depends on the geography/geology of the area. I don't know if they're that different but I don't see why they couldn't be

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#173

Post by justinclift »

nordsieck wrote: post #58
justinclift wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bear in mind that this could be a "thin edge of the wedge" situation. Where they get this "older" node stuff up and running, and if it turns out to be going well then they can think about newer process/node sizes. It's not a dumb approach.

> Bear in mind that this could be a "thin edge of the wedge" situation. Where they get this "older" node stuff up and running, and if it turns out to be going well then they can think about newer process/node sizes. I think that would be more credible if Global Foundries didn't already have "Fab 1" up and running that has a mature 22nm process.

But Global Foundries doesn't have the ability to do newer/smaller node sizes, so they can't "level up" at a future time. That is, unless Global Foundries makes some massive investments. Which they've not demonstrated any willingness to do, nor competence at doing.

This deal with TSMC at least seems like it provides a way forward with people that know how to execute. One that the Global Foundries option can't credibly provide.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#174

Post by bboygravity »

dontupvoteme wrote: post #139

Along with (hopefully) that french startup (Mistral) founded by the LLaMA guys, the EU is putting together the pieces they need to keep up with AI and maintain their ability to leverage their control mechanisms upon the FAANGS. Realpolitk wise they absolutely cannot risk regulatory capture to a few select firms on the west coast of the USA. Altman himself threatened (for a brief period) to cut off GPT to the EU after…

Just weird to me that they build in Germany. Germany basically pressed "delete" on (clean) energy for the coming decades and has very little capacity to seriously expand their energy conversion.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#175

Post by ferongr »

r0b1n wrote: post #161
croes wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fab is supposed to supply mainly the automotive industry, who made the mistake of cancelling their orders during Corona and were then surprised to find that the capacities were allocated elsewhere when they wanted to order again. They will still have the same problem, but they don't think that far ahead.

It isn't even thinking ahead. It is pure, plain and simple arrogance, of the most despicable and stupid kind. The German auto producers are used to be able to strong-arm politicians and their suppliers. What they say goes, because usually they can threaten whole regions with unemployment and whole companies (the ones that produce car-parts such as seat cushions or engine parts mostly/only) with bankruptcy. Don't want…

I don't know why this is downvoted but it's more or less correct regarding the industry here in Europe.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#176

Post by kmlx »

dontupvoteme wrote: post #157
enigma20 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would be the language death bad. Imho, from practical point of view it doesn't make sense to have multiple languages, or?

Language is culture, and if the sapir-whorf hypothesis holds, different languages are literally different methods of thinking. there are also other potential benefits, e.g. "the" in english gives little information about what noun may follow. "die/das/der" in general cut the probability space to a third.

> "the" in english gives little information about what noun may follow

for us non-native english speakers, this is an understated blessing.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#177

Post by berkes »

Nux wrote: post #144
dontupvoteme wrote: post #139

Along with (hopefully) that french startup (Mistral) founded by the LLaMA guys, the EU is putting together the pieces they need to keep up with AI and maintain their ability to leverage their control mechanisms upon the FAANGS. Realpolitk wise they absolutely cannot risk regulatory capture to a few select firms on the west coast of the USA. Altman himself threatened (for a brief period) to cut off GPT to the EU after…

I think AI is an afterthought here, if at all. Automotive is the main target and to a degree IoT. They couldn't build cars during the pandemic due to broken supply chains, that's when their lightbulb went on afaik.

But isn't a lot of modern automotive all about ai? Stuff like image recognition on camera's and sensors, error prediction, data-aggregation and, in future, self-driving?

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#178

Post by dav_Oz »

For those unfamiliar with the region (Saxony, Dresden):

A registered association (e.V. in German) bluntly named "Silicon Saxony e.V." (est. in 2000) with over 450 members headquartered in Dresden pretty much sums up the infrastructure and ambition.[0][1]

As pointed out the process TSMC’s 28/22 nanometer planar CMOS and 16/12 nanometer FinFET process technology (fabrication will begin in 2027) is not "cutting edge" but set to satisfy the (local) demand [2] mostly for the automotive industry. I guess a good conservative foothold given the current economic/geopolitical environment, but it's not like an innovation/investing boom or something.

However from a perspective of a young student, Saxony/Dresden - as for now - is pretty inexpensive as compared to Berlin, Hamburg or Munich and has ample opportunities (TU Dresden, Fraunhofer, MPI, Helmholtz Zentrum ...).

[From personal experience I find the people in Saxony (Leipzig, Dresden) have a more deep-rooted skepticism towards the federal government (or any centralized entity ruling over them) which can lead to a good thing - interesting perspectives/lively discussions or depending on your position less good - leaning more to the political (far) right.]

[0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Saxony

[1]https://silicon-saxony.de/

[2]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%932023_global_chi...

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#179

Post by kmlx »

dontupvoteme wrote: post #139

Along with (hopefully) that french startup (Mistral) founded by the LLaMA guys, the EU is putting together the pieces they need to keep up with AI and maintain their ability to leverage their control mechanisms upon the FAANGS. Realpolitk wise they absolutely cannot risk regulatory capture to a few select firms on the west coast of the USA. Altman himself threatened (for a brief period) to cut off GPT to the EU after…

> putting together the pieces they need to keep up with AI and maintain their ability to leverage their control mechanisms upon the FAANGS.

from the press release itself:

> ESMC marks a significant step towards construction of a 300mm fab to support the future capacity needs of the fast-growing automotive and industrial sectors, with the final investment decision pending confirmation of the level of public funding for this project.

it's a 300mm fab.

> Realpolitk wise they absolutely cannot risk regulatory capture to a few select firms on the west coast of the USA.

not only is this 40 years too late, but the press release itself contradicts this comment.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#180

Post by KingOfCoders »

r0b1n wrote: post #134
js8 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. All the big economic success was due to state coordination and intervention, not (neo-)liberalism. Liberalism might work for a smaller country that becomes a trading hub (like Singapore), and uses low taxes as a sort of parasitic strategy; that's why it cannot be replicated by large countries. I am glad that Germany is coming to their senses and finally rejecting neoliberalism. Now if only Eurozone leadershi…

Eurozone leadership will never do that, because of national egoisms. Just look at how Airbus builds its airplanes, because everybody wants a slice, so they fly each airplane body halfway across the continent and back... And Airbus is just 4 nations (FR, DE, ES, UK). Collaboration across all of the Eurozone or all of the EU would be a mess of ITER-like proportions.

Even with privatisation in the 90s and many on the left disputing this, Germany is still considered a social market economy ("Soziale Marktwirtschaft").
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