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Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

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Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#171

Post by mrguyorama »

omgwtfbyobbq wrote: post #154
mrguyorama wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Tesla is using that metric in a place most normally don't, and they are doing that purposely as elsewhere they use an in house estimation like everyone else. No gasoline car uses the EPA fuel economy to do it's range estimation, EVEN WHEN IT WOULD BE BETTER FOR THEM TO DO SO, because it's wrong enough often enough to make a range estimation using it lose significant value. Tesla has made a choice to stray from no…

I thought it was common in all cars these days. My gas car (Prius) uses the EPA fuel economy rating to estimate range at full, and is progressively pessimistic as I use up gas in the tank. On empty I can still get another 50-100 miles. My 3 also exhibits this behavior, although it's not quite as pessimistic as the Prius.

> My gas car (Prius) uses the EPA fuel economy rating to estimate range at full, and is progressively pessimistic as I use up gas in the tank

Do you have more convincing evidence of this because I have used many Toyota vehicles and they do not use EPA figures to do their range estimation, and can be conclusively shown to be using their internally measured "average mpg" figures to estimate range.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#172

Post by bdcravens »

kyriakos wrote: post #168
bdcravens wrote: post #38

My EV6 shows me a range that seems to be based on recent driving. When I've been conservative, the range is high; when I've been driving sportily, the opposite. Does Tesla do the same?

Ioniq 5 seems to do the same. If I keep speeding overtaking etc range goes down. If I drive conservatively I actually gain range while driving.

Which makes sense since the EV6 and the Ioniq 5 are pretty much the same car.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#173

Post by Kirby64 »

tzs wrote: post #128
Kirby64 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/ Take a look for yourself. EPA range vs a "real world" test is all over the place depending on vendor, and even depending on the car. Rivian, Kia, Nissan all have ranges that are under by similar percentages as Tesla. Only Porsche seems to heavily sandbag here.

I think what the person above you is talking about is not EPA range vs "real world" range. It is "car's estimate of remaining range before you have to recharge" and " real world remaining range before you have to recharge". E.g., suppose the EPA range is 300 miles, you started from with a full charge, are 100 miles into your trip, and are at 1/2 charge. If what others have said is correct by default Tesla will estima…

If you use the navigation, or use the Energy app on the car, then both of those will appropriately tell you your expected remaining range and the arrival state of charge. It does this quite well.

If you look at the state of charge % (and use the miles setting, instead of %), then sure. It'll be optimistic unless you drive the standard EPA route.

Honestly though, because battery drain is so dependent on route, elevation traveled, temperature, etc, I find the 'guess-o-meter' estimates to be mostly useless. You'll frequently find other vehicles that will start optimistic and degrade over time as well.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#174

Post by [deleted] »

user_named wrote: post #159
bdamm wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, and the one that is accurate is what you get when you put in a destination. The car can't tell you how far you can go if it doesn't know where you are going, because of all these factors (altitude gain, direction of wind, speed limits on the various roads involved, etc) which have a very significant effect on the range. The idea of a single value for "range" is fundamentally flawed. Is it Tesla's fault that pe…

Wrong. There are leaks saying that the fraud-dumbass himself forced the developers to display the incorrect number because it looks better.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#175

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

7speter wrote: post #49
MBCook wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly Tesla knew the EPA range isn’t what customers commonly got in the real world. They’re famous for all their telematics. If an example car can achieve 700 miles on the EPA test, but normal usage averages 150, is it fraud to advertise 700? To show 700 on the screen at full charge? I agree it’s an interesting question. If the difference was 5% I’m not sure people would care. But at 25% off I think it is a very a…

Most, if any, cars don’t get close to their epa fuel economy numbers under “normal” conditions.

My Tesla Model 3 Performance is the 4th car I've owned and it's the only car that hasn't achieved EPA estimations.

Hell, my previous car was a 2016 Subaru BRZ manual, EPA estimated at 24 city/30 highway. Despite the occasional launch, I still averaged 32 mpg.

That said, I'm not upset by it, despite only getting 240-270 miles depending on the weather (Out of the 300 mile EPA range). I know the reality of the difference in how an ICE and an EV use their energy.

Tesla is doing nothing wrong. If the range estimations are inaccurate, it's the EPA that needs to change.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#176

Post by lolsal »

vel0city wrote: post #152
lolsal wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No point in discussing it really I guess. My anecdotal evidence says otherwise. I’m happy you have these conveniences though; I’m looking forward to when EVs catch up to the conveniences of ICE vehicles and infrastructure.

Cool, I base my data off actual statistics instead of just anecdotes. https://www.statista.com/topics/5144/single-family-homes-in-... 82 out of 129 million units are single family detached homes. 62%. That's the majority. And I imagine most car-free households probably don't live in single-family detached by a large margin, so whatever percentage of that moves more car owners towards being the single family homes. Th…

I appreciate the source, but averages don’t really mean much in the real world.

I’ll tell my neighbors they should get an EV even though they can’t charge it at home and have commutes in areas where there aren’t super chargers yet, but on average they should be just fine, and let you know what they say, if you’d like.

So far we’re talking about refueling logistics, but a huge chunk of all the other uses of a vehicle preclude EVs as well.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#177

Post by sschueller »

Analemma_ wrote: post #14

Tesla's display shows the EPA range. While this is probably a bad idea and that's why no other manufacturer does it, "nobody else does it" is nothing but an informal standard and it seems a bit awkward to claim the approved government standard, in use at government agencies, is so obviously wrong that it constitutes fraud.

Maybe we should also ask our selves, why is Tesla's EPA range so high in comparison to all others?

I recall reading over and over in car reviews how the other EVs had low EPA estimates and during tests got an avarage above the EPA range. Why is that?

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#178

Post by sschueller »

machdiamonds wrote: post #150
itsoktocry wrote: post #34

Lots of people here missing a part of the issue: Tesla receives carbon credits based on the range of the vehicle. If that range was exaggerated, they defrauded the government.

Lots of people are missing that Tesla doesn't do EPA tests, the EPA does.

But why is the Tesla EPA range so high when all other EVs have such conservative EPA ranges?

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#179

Post by isityouyesitsme »

brandonagr2 wrote: post #122
dragontamer wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, "lying" isn't a legal term. "Fraud" is a legal term, and "intentionally misleading people" is the very definition of Fraud. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fraud In fact, it seems like Fraud is still Fraud at the reckless or negligent levels. No intent needed (though I'm sure proving it at the "intent" level will get them more of a case). So... is this Fraud? Well, yes. It would be. But the next step is f…

There is no fraud or misleading people. The EPA test cycle is an official test, you can run the test and get the same results yourself. It's not fraud that some dumb consumers don't understand what an EPA range estimate means

I didn't know that VW owned Tesla!

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#180

Post by omgwtfbyobbq »

mrguyorama wrote: post #171
omgwtfbyobbq wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it was common in all cars these days. My gas car (Prius) uses the EPA fuel economy rating to estimate range at full, and is progressively pessimistic as I use up gas in the tank. On empty I can still get another 50-100 miles. My 3 also exhibits this behavior, although it's not quite as pessimistic as the Prius.

> My gas car (Prius) uses the EPA fuel economy rating to estimate range at full, and is progressively pessimistic as I use up gas in the tank Do you have more convincing evidence of this because I have used many Toyota vehicles and they do not use EPA figures to do their range estimation, and can be conclusively shown to be using their internally measured "average mpg" figures to estimate range.

That sounds right. It could just be coincidence that the range estimate for the Prius is close to the product of EPA fuel economy figure and the tank size.

I'm mostly commenting on all manufacturers being conservative with fuel/energy use/metering. Even older vehicles I've had (carbureted pickup truck) usually have a gallon to so left in the tank on empty.

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