Damaging results of mandated return to the office: it’s worse than we thought • Hacker News Board

Re: Damaging results of mandated return to the office: it’s worse than we thought

#171

Post by dustedcodes » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 5:35 PM UTC

antisthenes wrote: post #153

McDyver wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does he actually spend any time working? This seems the exact thought process of management wanting people to RTO. They forget there's time, and life, after working hours. And the less you need to commute, the more free time you have to actually live and enjoy life.

I can't imagine essentially "moving" to a new place 3 times a year. I have pets and would need to take at least 3-4 days off to pack and move everything, so unless this dude owns 3 properties, it seems like a massive time expenditure to do this. Not to mention being incredibly stressful (which would make me less productive). Unless they are a digital nomad with a laptop and a pair of flip-flops. I make no assumptions…

What?

    > I can't imagine essentially "moving" to a new place 3 times a year.

You're not moving. You don't need to pack your microwave, sofa and stamp collection and organise 3 trucks to move all your stuff. You pack 1 or 2 suitcases with the things you need for the climate for 4 months (which goes by faster than you think).

    > I have pets

Ok, others don't so I don't see how that's relevant

    > would need to take at least 3-4 days off to pack and move everything

As I said, it's only 1-2 suitcases. You can pack them in a couple hours. If you need an entire day then you do it on a Saturday. Not sure why packing requires extra time off work. You make everything sound so stressful. Do you tend to stress about many normal life things?

    > so unless this dude owns 3 properties

Perhaps they do, but truthfully you don't need to own a place to spend somewhere 4 months. I've been to places for a few months and most rentals have fully fitted kitchens and basic things such as hair dryers, etc.

    > Not to mention being incredibly stressful (which would make me less productive).

Being stressed over nothing sounds like a subjective you problem, not a general problem. People also pack suitcases to go on holiday and going somewhere nice is for most people associated with happy hormones and not stress hormones.

    > I make no assumptions about their actual work day. Maybe they are incredibly productive.

Exactly, they are incredibly productive because nothing was said that would even remotely suggest the opposite.

Re: Damaging results of mandated return to the office: it’s worse than we thought

#172

Post by campl3r » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 5:38 PM UTC

sam0x17 wrote: post #99

Raidion wrote: post #78

My take on remote work as a manager for a company with significant name recognition: I think it's clear some people prefer working remotely (and the online hacker news crowd leans heavily that way). It's also clear that some people feel real benefits from being in the office. I think it's inevitable that the culture of a company mirrors the values of it's leaders. Companies with leaders that value in person communica…

> It's also clear that some people feel real benefits from being in the office. I'm so tired of this equivocation. These aren't two neatly swapable things like some sort of cute little "preference" that each company can decide for itself without receiving any judgement. The costs behind in-office work are GARGANTUAN, both in terms of the literal cost of renting + heating + cooling a huge office space that is vacant e…

As an employee the cost of working from home is GARGANTUAN. I already life where I want to, don't force me to move to a more expensive place so that I have space for an office at home. I don't need to move for any office, as all offices in my local city (1+ mil) are easily reachable by bike or subway within 30 minutes.

Re: Damaging results of mandated return to the office: it’s worse than we thought

#173

Post by mcronce » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 5:38 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #104

wredue wrote: post #50

I reclaim 1.5 hours a day from work from home, so a mandated back to work would actually represent a 6 point pay cut on the day assuming I thought that through properly. I don’t even have an egregious commute compared to others. Never mind that all of a sudden I no longer need before and after daycare. I have a home gym and can acceptably exercise at lunch. I don’t have peer pressures to go out for lunch all the time…

> transparently a middle management “I’m still relevant!” Which makes one wonder who the people who kept posting on here how much they missed the office and wished we'd go back to the office during the pandemic actually were.

I will say that, personally, I miss the office sometimes. If I had a 45 minute (per direction) or shorter commute I'd say my perfect world would be getting together in an office with my immediate team 1-2 times a week. It's just so much easier to have thoughtful discussion in person than via teleconferencing; I also, selfishly, enjoy the social aspect.

The other side of the coin is that solo work - e.g. slinging code - is a lot easier to get done at home with fewer distractions.

All that said, if my choice is between the extremes of mandatory RTA and full-time WFH, I pick full-time WFH ten times out of ten.

Re: Damaging results of mandated return to the office: it’s worse than we thought

#174

Post by spacemadness » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 5:40 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #27

cwkoss wrote: post #2

Commercial real estate value is a bubble that's gonna pop soon. There's just way more office space than anyone needs.

Is there a way to short CRE other than investing in non-commercial RE? I'd think you can probably directly short CRE-focused REITs but I'd be worried about them rebalancing or diversifying even as CRE starts to pop.

At this point this would be quite the opposite of the Michael Burry “nobody saw this coming” inspired short if real estate. I wouldn’t bother.

Re: Damaging results of mandated return to the office: it’s worse than we thought

#175

Post by bluefirebrand » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 5:44 PM UTC

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #140

andrewaylett wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mind occasionally being in the office with my entire team. The problem is that my team is split across three offices in different cities. We have folk who prefer to work from the office, and that's fine. But it makes team meetings more challenging than they are when everyone's at home. When we were only spread across two offices, we'd occasionally have a team day in one or other of the offices. But the third…

Oh certainly: in the case of distributed teams I much prefer WFH.

Aren't distributed teams basically the norm nowadays? It has been a long time since I worked with my whole team in a single office.

Between outsourcing, satellite offices and remote employees, almost no team I see nowadays has everyone in the same office.

Re: Damaging results of mandated return to the office: it’s worse than we thought

#176

Post by spacemadness » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 5:44 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #58

losteric wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fresh grads, interns, and apprentices typically uproot their lives to move to tech hubs, as do older populations. That is the terrible effect - getting dropped in a strange new location with minimal network. Of course letting "locals" work remotely would make that situation worse, agreed. So completely do away with tech hubs. People can continue to grow organically, they are free to stay or move as makes sense to the…

And critically, housing prices. New employees, at the bottom of the pay scale, are competing with employees making far more (with vesting) for homes. Democratizing this across a larger number of cities (and towns!) seems healthy. Disclaimer: Biased, as have to move regularly for spouse's job, so RTO wouldn't work for me.

I like that workers themselves need to “rebel” against the powers that be to solve this as we are completely incapable of improving the housing crisis otherwise. Nimbys, geriatric government ineptitude, and corporate investment is actively working against new home owners. It’s complete generational theft that seeks to turn everyone into a renter for life.

Re: Damaging results of mandated return to the office: it’s worse than we thought

#177

Post by Volundr » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 5:44 PM UTC

tmpz22 wrote: post #121

commandlinefan wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> transparently a middle management “I’m still relevant!” Which makes one wonder who the people who kept posting on here how much they missed the office and wished we'd go back to the office during the pandemic actually were.

Its easy to believe RTO would be a bandaid to a degraded social life or non-optimal at home situation. And for some it might even be true. But by large your social life can and should thrive outside your job. You just have to work for it.

I think this is a large part of it. For me certainly I realized during the pandemic that I was starting to feel really isolated and needed to make a conscious effort on my social life, but I also think this was a net win. True friendships are formed and strengthened by putting in effort. Ephemeral office connections are fleeting. I think if your social life dies when working remote it's a sign of a problem the office was papering over.

I also believe there are those for whom this is not enough and they really do need more time around people than can be obtained outside of work, but there are solutions for these people as well (ex co-working spaces)

Re: Damaging results of mandated return to the office: it’s worse than we thought

#178

Post by bluefirebrand » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 5:50 PM UTC

campl3r wrote: post #172

sam0x17 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's also clear that some people feel real benefits from being in the office. I'm so tired of this equivocation. These aren't two neatly swapable things like some sort of cute little "preference" that each company can decide for itself without receiving any judgement. The costs behind in-office work are GARGANTUAN, both in terms of the literal cost of renting + heating + cooling a huge office space that is vacant e…

As an employee the cost of working from home is GARGANTUAN. I already life where I want to, don't force me to move to a more expensive place so that I have space for an office at home. I don't need to move for any office, as all offices in my local city (1+ mil) are easily reachable by bike or subway within 30 minutes.

> As an employee the cost of working from home is GARGANTUAN

You don't have a desk, chair, and wifi at home?

Or a kitchen table or anything?

I mean I guess it's unfair to assume everyone has any kind of office space set up at their homes but I'm kinda shocked you don't already just have a flat surface and a chair.

Re: Damaging results of mandated return to the office: it’s worse than we thought

#179

Post by willcipriano » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 5:52 PM UTC

maxbond wrote: post #77

willcipriano wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

What's the plan you are thinking of?

A bit of artistic license perhaps, it's not really a plan. Pointing out the bucket of skilled labor is already empty and even the unskilled labor bucket is getting dry. Forcing layoffs now will probably bite them in future.

Re: Damaging results of mandated return to the office: it’s worse than we thought

#180

Post by bluefirebrand » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 5:53 PM UTC

bluefishinit wrote: post #108

Raidion wrote: post #78

My take on remote work as a manager for a company with significant name recognition: I think it's clear some people prefer working remotely (and the online hacker news crowd leans heavily that way). It's also clear that some people feel real benefits from being in the office. I think it's inevitable that the culture of a company mirrors the values of it's leaders. Companies with leaders that value in person communica…

> Companies with leaders that feel like collaboration is less important, are more willing to set metrics and not be as directly as involved, and hire experienced employees with less oversight, lean towards remote work. I feel like collaboration is very important which is why I only run teams WFH and never in the office. There's no collaboration happening when people are crammed together in a building, just posturing.…

I kinda agree here, especially with modern tools.

Screen sharing on a call is a 10000x better experience than "just come over to my desk and look over my shoulder"

Screen sharing is better for pair programming, mentoring, demoing, everything. It's awesome.

The only real downside to calls is that whiteboarding is a challenge, but tbh Whiteboards are anti-productive, they are where communication goes to die imo.