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At this company, we are family

pboyd.io

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Re: At this company, we are family

#171

Post by silisili »

gonehome wrote: post #23
jylam wrote: post #16

I especially like the very American "I ask that you refrain from discussing your termination with any social contacts made through your membership in the family [...] Failure to comply may result in your severance being terminated early or withheld entirely." In (most of ?) Europe, this severance is law and not debatable (as discovered by Musk recently), so this sentence would be outright illegal. You can talk about…

Independent of the tongue-in-cheek joke of this post, software salaries in the US are triple (or more) than those in Europe, I'd rather keep the tradeoffs we have even if that means there are downsides - the upsides are worth it. I suspect the labor protections in Europe are part of the reason there aren't many billion dollar software companies there and the salaries are low, hiring is risky when firing is hard.

Is it really triple, or is that just looking at FAANG? I'd imagine US average to be low to mid 100k. Looking at Germany as an example, it seems their average is 70k Euros, so more than half?

Then there's health insurance which never stops going up, and having to save a large portion of each check for our own retirements because when we're past 50 we're relegated to greeting at WalMart.

I'm not sure which is better, since each Euro country is different and such, but just looking at salary numbers isn't much to go on.

Re: At this company, we are family

#172

Post by clarkevans »

systemvoltage wrote: post #36
me_jumper wrote: post #8

Gosh, I hate “we are a family” companies so much.

I disagree, my father ran a small business (physical goods) and the people in his company were almost like a family. They felt as such, we treated them as such, it was amazing...brings a tear. I cannot emphasize this enough: It was far better relationship than resentful people on HN who are constantly complaining about work. They were happier as a whole.

Benevolent ownership works well, till the owner passes on. Then all of the unwritten promises no longer exist.

Re: At this company, we are family

#173

Post by _zoltan_ »

tambourine_man wrote: post #153
Firaxus wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate further on the points of what happened, the countries themselves, and the final quote?

Retirement age increase, easier/cheaper to fire employees, relaxed definitions of extra-time, the usual. We ended up with a recession and less rights. Don’t want to reveal the countries, but it’s a common tale.

Why don't you want to name two countries on earth? Either people can fact check you or you're just full of it.

Also don't think you are special to live in two countries. This will not dox you.

Re: At this company, we are family

#174

Post by kogus »

jylam wrote: post #56
jraby3 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not convinced Americans pay less in taxes. When you include state taxes, social security from the employee and employer, then it starts to look like much less of a difference. When you include health insurance and college education, Americans get much less value. I do agree with the first half of your comment. American labor laws make it easier to fire which allows employers to take more risk in hiring.

> "I do agree with the first half of your comment. American labor laws make it easier to fire which allows employers to take more risk in hiring. " less risk, you used the wrong word. If they can fire easily, they take less risk by hiring. That's more risk for the employee though, you miss the fact that most of the people is not HN, and they don't get paid 6 or 7 figures and don't find a job in days if they really ne…

You are right - but because each hire is less risky, a US company can afford to take the risk of hiring for an "experimental" role that may not work out. I think this additional risk is what they were referring to.

Re: At this company, we are family

#175

Post by Brusco_RF »

notaustinpowers wrote: post #65
Brusco_RF wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think company-sponsored social events are designed to exclude non-social types, they're just for the benefit of social employees. Of course, this is coming from someone who really enjoys drinking on the company dime

Typically not, but they absolutely feed into the higher-ups perception of you. I worked at a company an hour away from my home. So anytime we had our monthly post-work happy hour, I'd politely decline and go home. Especially as I know they'll be out until 10pm. During one of my reviews it was mentioned that it's disappointing I don't attend the happy hours as that's when the team is able to connect and strengthen our…

Look I'm not saying you need to stay out drinking until 10pm but team-building is important to any job, especially if you're a leader, and much of that team cohesiveness happens outside of work hours.

It's not too surprising if skipping all team-building events results in... not being a part of the team

Re: At this company, we are family

#176

Post by codingdave »

jedberg wrote: post #156

This is why I always liked Netflix's outlook (both stated and practiced): We are a sports team, not a family. Perform well and you will be paid well, perform poorly and you will get a nice check to go elsewhere. And sometimes you might perform really well but we just don't need someone with your skills anymore, so we'll still give you nice check to go elsewhere, and that isn't a reflection on your abilities.

I worked for someone who liked that, too, and after leaving Netflix, he carried it over into a new startup. It was not as great of an experience for any of us (including that founder) as it may sound. Years later, and we still talk amongst ourselves about how weird of an environment it created.

Basically, that outlook sounds great on paper, but is not so great to actually live.

Re: At this company, we are family

#177

Post by jedberg »

codingdave wrote: post #176
jedberg wrote: post #156

This is why I always liked Netflix's outlook (both stated and practiced): We are a sports team, not a family. Perform well and you will be paid well, perform poorly and you will get a nice check to go elsewhere. And sometimes you might perform really well but we just don't need someone with your skills anymore, so we'll still give you nice check to go elsewhere, and that isn't a reflection on your abilities.

I worked for someone who liked that, too, and after leaving Netflix, he carried it over into a new startup. It was not as great of an experience for any of us (including that founder) as it may sound. Years later, and we still talk amongst ourselves about how weird of an environment it created. Basically, that outlook sounds great on paper, but is not so great to actually live.

I lived it for four years and loved every second of it, but I will be the first to tell you that it's not for everyone.

I can also see how it would be hard to carry over into a startup, because the entire culture rests on the idea that you can pay people top of market to be there, that they don't have to worry a lot about budgets, and that you can afford to give people big checks when they leave.

Re: At this company, we are family

#178

Post by RestlessMind »

jraby3 wrote: post #40
FredPret wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you so sarcastically point out, Americans give up many employment rights such as these. But it's not a one-way street. Being easier to fire makes American employees easier to hire, which is at least in part responsible for much higher pay in the USA compared to employee havens such as Europe. Furthermore, Americans tend to pay less tax. This isn't usually thought of as an employee rights issue, but in my mind, kee…

I’m not convinced Americans pay less in taxes. When you include state taxes, social security from the employee and employer, then it starts to look like much less of a difference. When you include health insurance and college education, Americans get much less value. I do agree with the first half of your comment. American labor laws make it easier to fire which allows employers to take more risk in hiring.

> college education

College education can be had for super cheap in the US via community colleges. Going to an expensive college is a lifestyle choice and I know many people who spend first 2 years in local community colleges and then move to the state college system.

Re: At this company, we are family

#179

Post by usrusr »

froggertoaster wrote: post #5

Mildly amusing, and yes - the whole "this company is a family" schtick is overplayed by companies. I never say that at my company - instead the employees often say it back to me, which I feel is much more culturally "real" than me saying it. At one company party, the employees were going around the room telling me how nice it was to work for me (which is very kind of them). The last guy sheepishly shrugged and said,…

At least it's not the reverse: a much darker story would be one about a company where employment was tied to shared procreation.

Re: At this company, we are family

#180

Post by RestlessMind »

blackbeans wrote: post #152
gonehome wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Independent of the tongue-in-cheek joke of this post, software salaries in the US are triple (or more) than those in Europe, I'd rather keep the tradeoffs we have even if that means there are downsides - the upsides are worth it. I suspect the labor protections in Europe are part of the reason there aren't many billion dollar software companies there and the salaries are low, hiring is risky when firing is hard.

It depends. Yes, the salaries are lower, but so are the expenses on average. The fringe benefits are usually good. There's a legal minimum amount of paid holiday days, in my country the minimum is 20/year but some unions have close to 40. There's also a legal maximum amount of allowed overtime, the employer pays a part of the employee's pension in my country et cetera. It's probably true that it's easier to upscale a…

Over the years, I have some to realize that each country has its own warts. Looking across the pond, eg. UK seems to be in a much worse condition than the US in spite of having a big safety net (healthcare, colleges etc).
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