Climate records tumble, leaving Earth in uncharted territory

Re: Climate records tumble, leaving Earth in uncharted territory – scientists

#171

Post by goatlover » Sat, Jul 22, 2023, 2:06 PM UTC

ant6n wrote: post #165

Aerroon wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope it isn't only seen as anti-green. A big worry I have concerning climate change is that often I see discussions about climate policy ignore why our consumption is so high. It's not really the billionaires or greedy corporations. It's us. We're the ones consuming the bulk of these resources. And these policies will affect the poorest the most. On the other hand, I also worry about the impact of climate change. I…

Sustainable policies likely affect the poorest the least. Climate change will affect them the most. The poorest already make a lot of sustainable choices: living in apartments in cities, taking public transportation, consuming less. It’s possible that if carbon was heavily taxed, and some of the proceeds returned to everybody, that the poorest would actually be better off. Never mind the whole stopping the climate ca…

The poorest mostly live in the developing world that's still catching up and has the highest birth rates. Yes, their carbon footprint is low now. But their energy needs will keep going up until they fully develop and the global population peaks (a couple billion more people from now). It's unclear to what extent clean energies will meet their increasing demand, at least before the world can decarbonize, whenever that happens.

Re: Climate records tumble, leaving Earth in uncharted territory – scientists

#172

Post by goatlover » Sat, Jul 22, 2023, 2:14 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #104

Ekaros wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why stop at meat and dairy. Why not go all the way, select handful of optimal foods and only allow those to be sold or grown. Anyone doing anything else would heavily punished? After all, if we ban beef. We have accepted that taste has no meaning in life and we can just ban everything not mandatory like spices and herbs.

Why have speed limits on the road? We have accepted that human life is worthless, because cars are allowed to drive fast enough to cause fatal crashes, may as well remove all limits alltogether. --- Absolutist arguments are absolutely absurd.

Vegan arguments are absolutist. Everyone isn't going to give up meat. I doubt even the majority of people will by 2050. However, it's possible enough people could be convinced to reduce meat consumption to make a difference. It alone won't solve climate change.

Re: Climate records tumble, leaving Earth in uncharted territory – scientists

#173

Post by goatlover » Sat, Jul 22, 2023, 2:18 PM UTC

myshpa wrote: post #132

numbers_guy wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree in principle. The reason we are not doing this is because it would destroy the economy and when that happens basically everything falls apart. We would still have enough food and essentials for everyone but loads of people would be without jobs and others would lose billions of wealth. A fully green economy might be possible in the far future but the transition seems like it is going to take a century or more…

We should send people like you together with phone sanitizers to search for a new planet. You'll go first, the scientists will go in a second ship.

This is a reddit-level comment.

Re: Climate records tumble, leaving Earth in uncharted territory – scientists

#174

Post by numbers_guy » Sat, Jul 22, 2023, 2:20 PM UTC

myshpa wrote: post #132

numbers_guy wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree in principle. The reason we are not doing this is because it would destroy the economy and when that happens basically everything falls apart. We would still have enough food and essentials for everyone but loads of people would be without jobs and others would lose billions of wealth. A fully green economy might be possible in the far future but the transition seems like it is going to take a century or more…

We should send people like you together with phone sanitizers to search for a new planet. You'll go first, the scientists will go in a second ship.

I just explained why climate action is not being taken. I am not making any statement on the matter.

And I don't know what phone sanitizers are.

Re: Climate records tumble, leaving Earth in uncharted territory – scientists

#175

Post by goatlover » Sat, Jul 22, 2023, 2:23 PM UTC

myshpa wrote: post #151

jl6 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gives some people comfort to think that complex problems have simple solutions. If it’s just the fault of the billionaires, that’s a small group that can be relatively easily targeted. The alternative is facing the uncomfortable truth that climate change is the aggregate of small decisions made every day by every human, and there is no single action that will address it.

Climate change is a symptom of overshoot of the carrying capacity our our environment. The financial system is based on growth, with the majority of money (97% IIRC) being debts we must repay with interest. This leads to exponential growth, which is unsustainable in a finite environment (thus overshooting the carrying capacity). https://futureearth.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/great_acc... Billionaires are simply s…

It's not clear why we need to do this when the alternative is decarbonizing using cleaner technologies, then going heavy on carbon capture once that technology matures. Carrying capacity isn't fixed, it changes depending on how we produce food and other goods. Energy isn't fixed either, because we have the sun, which can provide all the energy we need short of a future science fiction scenario where we outgrow the solar system. I don't think that's a real concern right now.

And even in a science fiction scenario where we become a type 2 civilization, it's not clear that's a bad thing assuming we can expand to nearby star systems. Robin Hanson's Grabby Alien solution to the Fermi Paradox suggests this is what civilizations will do, and we might as well grab up as much real estate until we come into contact with the other expanding spheres of alien expansion (granted this is very long term).

Re: Climate records tumble, leaving Earth in uncharted territory – scientists

#176

Post by wappieslurkz » Sat, Jul 22, 2023, 2:40 PM UTC

_l4jh wrote: post #94

Anecdotal story time. We have a family villa in Spain about an hour and a half south of Alicante. We just got back from two weeks there like we do every year. The heat and humidity this time was the first time it was too much so that we didn’t enjoy our time there. We’ve had this place 21 years. Yes it’s Spain and it’s always hot which is why we bought it but this year was something else. The mix of both very high te…

21 years of all that travelling back and forth to a family vacation home... My flight shame would kill me. How did/do you deal with that?

Re: Climate records tumble, leaving Earth in uncharted territory – scientists

#177

Post by myshpa » Sat, Jul 22, 2023, 2:51 PM UTC

goatlover wrote: post #175

myshpa wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Climate change is a symptom of overshoot of the carrying capacity our our environment. The financial system is based on growth, with the majority of money (97% IIRC) being debts we must repay with interest. This leads to exponential growth, which is unsustainable in a finite environment (thus overshooting the carrying capacity). https://futureearth.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/great_acc... Billionaires are simply s…

It's not clear why we need to do this when the alternative is decarbonizing using cleaner technologies, then going heavy on carbon capture once that technology matures. Carrying capacity isn't fixed, it changes depending on how we produce food and other goods. Energy isn't fixed either, because we have the sun, which can provide all the energy we need short of a future science fiction scenario where we outgrow the so…

> when the alternative is decarbonizing using cleaner technologies

There (might not be) enough fossil fuels left, and EROI is falling fast, so the question is whether we'd able to do this before the energy runs out and our economy will be forcibly reduced by nature.

> carbon capture once that technology matures

I'm worried that's just a technological pipedream. No such technology will probably exist for decades at the scale needed. We'd need millions of such factories. In fact, we already have such "technology", it's called forests ... but we're not doing that either.

> Carrying capacity isn't fixed

No, it's not. We've extended it in the past, but now it seems that it started decline ... and might enter freefall soon. I'd suggest this for more info: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPb_0JZ6-Rc

> energy isn't fixed either

Yes, and it's heating the planet and oceans 100x more than what we're consuming now. 5 atomic bombs every second now, is it? I'm aware that 254x254 km2 of solar panels would be enough for all our energy needs (except storage) ... but we're far from that. Even in the most optimistic scenarios we're targeting 25-30% of renewable energy in 2050 ... not really enough.

> science fiction scenario where we become a type 2 civilization

I'd like us to get there. But we might as well be at the end of the runway, looking at the great filter with our own eyes right now.

Re: Climate records tumble, leaving Earth in uncharted territory – scientists

#178

Post by satysin » Sat, Jul 22, 2023, 3:06 PM UTC

wappieslurkz wrote: post #176

_l4jh wrote: post #94

Anecdotal story time. We have a family villa in Spain about an hour and a half south of Alicante. We just got back from two weeks there like we do every year. The heat and humidity this time was the first time it was too much so that we didn’t enjoy our time there. We’ve had this place 21 years. Yes it’s Spain and it’s always hot which is why we bought it but this year was something else. The mix of both very high te…

21 years of all that travelling back and forth to a family vacation home... My flight shame would kill me. How did/do you deal with that?

It's a ~12 hour drive. No need to fly.

I have far more shame about how much food I waste or worse how much I used to consume if I am honest. When I look at the environmental impact of the food I eat it dwarfs everything else.

Even if I were to fly every time that would have been 42 two-hour flights over two decades. I wouldn't have shame over that number of flights considering I've worked with people that fly more than that in a couple of months just for meetings.

Re: Climate records tumble, leaving Earth in uncharted territory – scientists

#179

Post by myshpa » Sat, Jul 22, 2023, 3:10 PM UTC

numbers_guy wrote: post #174

myshpa wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should send people like you together with phone sanitizers to search for a new planet. You'll go first, the scientists will go in a second ship.

I just explained why climate action is not being taken. I am not making any statement on the matter. And I don't know what phone sanitizers are.

I should not have reacted in the way I did, and for that I'm sorry.

I've tried to debunk your comment, but it would take a long time, so I rewrote it instead.

"We are not doing it so the nature will destroy the economy and when that happens basically everything falls apart. We then won't have enough food and essentials for everyone but loads of people would be without jobs and others would lose their homes, their livelihood or life even.

A fully green economy could be right around the corner, but instead the transition seems like it is going to take a century or more, which is not enough time not to enter societal and environmental collapse, so it seems more like an extinction level event."

> And I don't know what phone sanitizers are.

We're their descendants. Rejoice, you're in for a treat ... I suggest to you ... The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. You'll enjoy it (the book, not the movie!).

Re: Climate records tumble, leaving Earth in uncharted territory – scientists

#180

Post by dathos » Sat, Jul 22, 2023, 3:22 PM UTC

MrVandemar wrote: post #116

tcfhgj wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

~agriculture~ Meat

No agriculture. Broadscale monoculture crops, grown and harvested and distributed with fossil-fuel inputs. Essentially an outdoors factory.

Agriculture which is used to feed the animals. Look at soy in the Amazon, most is used in the meat industry