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How is ChatGPT's behavior changing over time?

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Re: How is ChatGPT's behavior changing over time?

#171

Post by xp84 »

remus wrote: post #119
xp84 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously. GPT doing math is like using a 737 to drive around on the ground, or if you had the phone number of a prominent astrophysicist and you call him to do long division for you. Wtf is the point. We have computer things to do every math problem. It’s a waste of energy to use LLMs for it in my opinion.

> GPT doing math is like using a 737 to drive around on the ground, or if you had the phone number of a prominent astrophysicist and you call him to do long division for you. I don't think this is a great analogy. if your 737 couldn't drive on the ground and your astrophysicist couldn't answer basic maths questions I wouldn't want to fly in that plane or put much faith in the astrophysicists answers to more complex q…

My point was that a 737 can be a land vehicle, but very badly, because it's optimized (to an extreme amount) for flying. I fly on 737s all the time, knowing that have terrible stopping distances and cornering. The 0-60 could be decent, but you can't really accelerate all-out to try it, or you'll overshoot and end up going 175 and crashing.

The astrophysicist can do long division in his head, but he'll be about as fast and accurate as the next person, because he doesn't practice arithmetic every day.

I agree with the commenter somewhere in my thread who said all an LLM should be optimized for is to classify the type of problem and feed it into a purpose-built, deterministic solver that is trained to interpret math as math and not as language, be it ML-based or algorithmic.

Re: How is ChatGPT's behavior changing over time?

#172

Post by xp84 »

theelous3 wrote: post #87
xp84 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously. GPT doing math is like using a 737 to drive around on the ground, or if you had the phone number of a prominent astrophysicist and you call him to do long division for you. Wtf is the point. We have computer things to do every math problem. It’s a waste of energy to use LLMs for it in my opinion.

The point of doing $non-llm-optimal-thing on an llm is the hope that it let's you skip on formal syntaxes, which are mentally taxing. It's far easier even for an expert to communicate what they want in natural language than it is in a formal syntax for all but the most trivial things. It should be a goal of these tools to do this correctly.

> the hope that it let's you skip on formal syntaxes, which are mentally taxing

agree completely, but the LLM should be focused, then, strictly on formulating an "execution plan" of sorts and handing that off, not on performing math itself.

In other words, when asked "if i have 349 blueberries and one blueberry turns into a cherry per hour, how many of each fruit will I have in 93478 minutes?" it shouldn't be doing the actual arithmetic, but it should be figuring out what arithmetic would need to be done.

Re: How is ChatGPT's behavior changing over time?

#173

Post by muzani »

falcor84 wrote: post #114
muzani wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should also test its capabilities on cooking steak, flying rockets, and making love. Only then will we know if AI can be superior to humans on all things.

I know you're being facetious, but I'd absolutely be in favor of having AI benchmarks for any and all of these.

I realized that halfway through typing that too. As well as the absurdity of trying to create AIs that exceed a human in all tasks.

On a serious note, most of these AIs are bad at math but good at writing code for calculators. So what you'll be benchmarking is their ability to create and use tools.

Re: How is ChatGPT's behavior changing over time?

#174

Post by lumost »

reportgunner wrote: post #95
lumost wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used GPT-4 to generate a non-cryptographic random 64 character string. It was faster to ask GPT-4 for the string than ask GPT-4 for the instructions to generate the string from my terminal. GPT-4 was faster than google.

Were you in a room that had it's walls slowly caving in like in indiana jones or why does it matter that it was faster ?

Close! Was in a meeting and needed to see the behavior of a system when passed a string greater than 64 char.

My mental capacity was used elsewhere - using chatGPT let me answer an important customer question authoritatively.

Re: How is ChatGPT's behavior changing over time?

#175

Post by TeMPOraL »

BoorishBears wrote: post #168
TeMPOraL wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably, both ChatGPT and API are consumer apps. That includes researchers. Pay as you go, no strings attached, "oh yeah no no, we're not changing anything, follow our CEO on Twitter if you want to know more". That kind of stuff. The actual B2B offering is handled by Microsoft, via Azure OpenAI . Same models, but deployed on Azure - meaning they come with SLA and all the right protocol and compliance stuff, so that…

Maybe arguable if you don't know what consumer apps are? Also sounds like you haven't actually used Azure OpenAI: - It has the same 30 day retention for legal reasons unless you manually request (just like OpenAI) - You can't fine tune any models that you can't fine tune on OpenAI, and in fact default access is a subset of what OpenAI offers. - "and if you're willing to spend enough, you'll get the models for yoursel…

> Also sounds like you haven't actually used Azure OpenAI

On the contrary, I am using Azure OpenAI daily at work, and I'm explicitly not allowed to use "regular" OpenAI offerings.

> It has the same 30 day retention for legal reasons unless you manually request (just like OpenAI)

It doesn't, at least not for us.

> Azure OpenAI has a narrower built in filter that you can't modify without again, a separate request.

I'm not sure if it's narrower, but it is there and I have a strong suspicion that MS is just trying to extract additional rent from companies that really want to turn the filter off.

> Azure OpenAI overall is mostly for companies that need to signal to other companies that they're using Azure: it's no more commercial than the OpenAI offering.

No. Azure OpenAI is for companies that don't play fast and loose with data - their own data, and their customer data. Of course, most companies don't give a damn, but for big enough companies, or those operating in certain industries, there are actual, severe legal consequences for mishandling the data, and such companies don't have the option to just not give a fuck and dance with OpenAI - they need to sign an actual contract with a serious entity that understands regulatory compliance, and how corporations tick. Microsoft is such entity. OpenAI isn't.

Re: How is ChatGPT's behavior changing over time?

#176

Post by [deleted] »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #175
BoorishBears wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe arguable if you don't know what consumer apps are? Also sounds like you haven't actually used Azure OpenAI: - It has the same 30 day retention for legal reasons unless you manually request (just like OpenAI) - You can't fine tune any models that you can't fine tune on OpenAI, and in fact default access is a subset of what OpenAI offers. - "and if you're willing to spend enough, you'll get the models for yoursel…

> Also sounds like you haven't actually used Azure OpenAI On the contrary, I am using Azure OpenAI daily at work, and I'm explicitly not allowed to use "regular" OpenAI offerings. > It has the same 30 day retention for legal reasons unless you manually request (just like OpenAI) It doesn't, at least not for us. > Azure OpenAI has a narrower built in filter that you can't modify without again, a separate request. I'm…

[deleted]

Re: How is ChatGPT's behavior changing over time?

#177

Post by BoorishBears »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #175
BoorishBears wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe arguable if you don't know what consumer apps are? Also sounds like you haven't actually used Azure OpenAI: - It has the same 30 day retention for legal reasons unless you manually request (just like OpenAI) - You can't fine tune any models that you can't fine tune on OpenAI, and in fact default access is a subset of what OpenAI offers. - "and if you're willing to spend enough, you'll get the models for yoursel…

> Also sounds like you haven't actually used Azure OpenAI On the contrary, I am using Azure OpenAI daily at work, and I'm explicitly not allowed to use "regular" OpenAI offerings. > It has the same 30 day retention for legal reasons unless you manually request (just like OpenAI) It doesn't, at least not for us. > Azure OpenAI has a narrower built in filter that you can't modify without again, a separate request. I'm…

> It doesn't, at least not for us.

So then you filled out the request because the default is exactly the same as OpenAI: retained unless you manually apply for an exception.

https://customervoice.microsoft.com/Pages/ResponsePage.aspx?...

> I'm not sure if it's narrower, but it is there and I have a strong suspicion that MS is just trying to extract additional rent from companies that really want to turn the filter off.

You don't need to question if it's narrower, OpenAI used to surface it as an API separate from the moderation API and it's much stricter by design.

> No. Azure OpenAI is for companies that don't play fast and loose with data - their own data, and their customer data...

I don't know if you actually believe this or you're just not aware, but the companies that don't play fast and loose aren't using OpenAI period: Azure flavored or otherwise.

OpenAI has SOC2, GDPR and CCPA compliance. They comply with HIPPA and offer BAs. They sign DPAs on a case-by-case basis same as Azure.

You're pretty much proving the value of Azure in your comment: it's a veneer of familiarity that coaxes people who are convinced the new kid on the block must be untrustworthy.

If OpenAI can't promise something Azure can't either: They're entirely dependent on OpenAI for this. Every idiosyncrasy behind Azure OpenAI maps back 1:1 to OpenAI.

Re: How is ChatGPT's behavior changing over time?

#178

Post by copperx »

spaceman_2020 wrote: post #137
AbrahamParangi wrote: post #135

The main thing that ChatGPT has gotten better at is rejecting jailbreaks and refusing to go off the reservation. It has been demonstrated that "safety" trades off against "capability". I'm sure OpenAI has evaluations that demonstrate the improvements they've been making to "safety" have not come at the cost of capability, but I'd bet those evaluations are wrong (by being insufficient). It also wouldn't surprise me if…

I've cancelled my pro subscription. You can't ask me to pay money and also expect me to spend hours Googling around to find prompts for basic queries. I would also like to not be treated like an idiot. Every time I query anything related to health or medicine, chatGPT will give me a short generic answer, then add two paragraphs of warnings about how I should just seek a medical professional's help. As if I'm the kind…

I'm nostalgic about the first public version of GPT-4. It did have some sparks of AGI. The interface was very ergonomic because it assumed correctly many things about the user's request and intentions. Now I find I have to write very long prompts and explanations to steer it correctly, as if training a brand new employee. It's really tiring. And I'm not even talking about the accuracy of the responses.

It's sad, but I understand why they did it. It was too much power in the hands of people.

Re: How is ChatGPT's behavior changing over time?

#179

Post by nmfisher »

tagyro wrote: post #162

I read the paper and while I agree that maybe math is not GPT-4 strongest point, I have noticed the same degradation in quality. And as I know there will be many commenters asking, here's my experience. Four months ago I released a mobile app that wraps the "Open"AI API and allows a more private use. The app also includes 15 domains with over 150+ editable prompts, specifically crafted to help users get the most out…

This tracks with my experience too. For the past few years, I've been using "give me the pinyin for these Chinese characters" as a rough guide for how well a given model would perform. When GPT4 was released, it absolutely nailed this task; every word was 100% correct, every single time. For reference, even GPT3.5 wasn't great at this.

I repeated this last week and it's still getting the phonetic content right, it's now often getting the tones wrong (something which I literally never saw on release).

Perhaps changing the prompt would deliver the correct results, but that's not really the point. Something has pretty clearly changed such that old prompts no longer delivering the same results.

Re: How is ChatGPT's behavior changing over time?

#180

Post by nmfisher »

ramesh31 wrote: post #12
nomel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What enables this? There's a huge gap between GPT-3.5 and 4, put there by a massive amount of money, from my understanding. To compete, with open source projects being less well funded, I would assume that orders of magnitude improvements in training cost would be required. What do you see driving this, and who do you see paying for it? If Meta, or anyone else, gets something that beats GPT-4, I would naively assume…

>Or, are you suggesting that GPT-4 is the pinnacle of OpenAI, or that their funding will run dry? My bet is that Meta has pivoted almost entirely to this space with their R&D in the last six months. Llama 2 is spectacular. And with its' success, there will undoubtedly be more. They also happen to have access to limitless amounts of compute, cash, and engineering that puts OpenAI to shame. This could finally be their…

I haven't tried Llama 2 yet - what specifically makes you say it's spectacular? The licensing or the model itself?
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