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Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

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Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#171

Post by andsoitis »

Nevermark wrote: post #50
andsoitis wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone gets angry about a badge in an app, it seems like they have a deeper issue to deal with.

If badges motivated learners to do things that benefited them, but now (they feel) badges motivate behavior that benefits the app maker more instead … that would be a clear example of enshittification. Rule 34 needs a twin: Anything can be useful. Therefore, anything can be enshittified. And will be. Period dot period. QED. I have spoken.

> If badges motivated learners to do things that benefited them, but now (they feel) badges motivate behavior that benefits the app maker more instead … that would be a clear example of enshittification.

But you don't know that the aggregate user base feels that way. In fact, it might actually be much better for learners, like the top comment says: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36611749

The person I replied to talked about 1 person getting angry about the change, but that doesn't mean it is bad for everyone and is not evidence of enshittification based on data.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#172

Post by mbork_pl »

fsckboy wrote: post #101
wunderland wrote: post #65

A perfect example with the recent changes at Twitter: > Most Twitter users barely tweet and don't care about followers - a "heavy user" tweets on average less than three times a week. So if someone is posting regularly enough to be willing to pay $8 a month for a blue tick, but has not built up a sizeable following organically, this is a very strong signal that the posts they are producing are no good. > It is exactl…

> enough to be willing to pay $8 a month you realize $8 a month is nothing to the majority of adults who would be in the "knowledge worker" category? a month? a couple of coffees is $10 and that's a day.

> $8 a month is nothing to the majority of adults who would be in the "knowledge worker" category

This is a very US-centric take and almost insulting for people living in certain other areas of the world. In my country (central Europe, as is easy to guess), an experienced teacher (definitely a "knowledge worker" in my book) may earn about $10k per year. Not sure how much a beginner one gets, but surely less. $8 per month is a lot then.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#173

Post by sarchertech »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #95
glun wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This only happens when the users are the product or its a marketplace. Most business models dont suffer from shittification. But VCs love investing in the ones that do.

I would say the opposite. Consumers frequently reward the business models that do whatever it takes to lower prices in the short term, often sacrificing the long term. It is a constant struggle to convince people that your higher quality product/service is worth the extra cost, and obviously, many times it is not. But the formula for operating a successful, long term business is not as simple as “output the best qual…

It’s not that consumers don’t reward quality. It’s that more consumers reward lower prices, and once outside money is involved you have to chase growth instead of steady profits.

Family owned businesses are often able to maintain very high quality. They’ll just never make enough to satisfy people looking for huge returns, which is nearly anyone who doesn’t have some deeper connection to the company.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#174

Post by passwordoops »

bsenftner wrote: post #157
DrScientist wrote: post #152

Isn't this just a function of a lot of these business models don't actually work? Ie a lot of these are the equivalent of giving away free ( investor funded ) banana fritters, getting decent uptake and using it to declare that the market in banana fritters is huge, but when you start to charge for them it turns our the market is quite small. Another way the business models don't work is the companies start off assumi…

We have an evil cabal of enshitification enforcers in the form of the entire advertising and marketing industry. They enforce the group think impressed on society, and will not put any energy into anything not following the current zeitgeist of shitty exploitation and only the legally required (reluctant) fair treatment of their consumer and their employees. Our society voices, both journalism and advertising/marketi…

>advertising and marketing industry

Which today is primarily Google, Amazon, Meta, and yes, even Apple (0)

(0) https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-privacy-analytics-class-act...

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#175

Post by pmoriarty »

sanderjd wrote: post #168
bsenftner wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have an evil cabal of enshitification enforcers in the form of the entire advertising and marketing industry. They enforce the group think impressed on society, and will not put any energy into anything not following the current zeitgeist of shitty exploitation and only the legally required (reluctant) fair treatment of their consumer and their employees. Our society voices, both journalism and advertising/marketi…

I think you've missed the point of the parent comment. The point is that the entire model only exists in symbiosis with what you call "enshitification enforcers". There is no mass market social media without the "evil cabal... of the advertising and marketing industry". There is no other model that can pay the bills for a site with hundreds of millions of active users posting their own content with mostly no restrain…

"There is no other model that can pay the bills for a site with hundreds of millions of active users posting their own content with mostly no restraint."

The government can. These companies could be nationalized, or the government could make their own competing sites if they were interested in doing so. But they're just not.

It takes more than just the means. It takes a will to do it.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#176

Post by cmrdporcupine »

fsckboy wrote: post #115

the YCombinator powers-that-be preach that a positive outlook is a key asset to propel you and your projects forward. The word "enshittification" seems to be a Maxwell's Daemon designed to concentrate all the stray negative thoughts into (this) one huge snipe session.

Unlikely, the word comes from Doctorow -- a person with anti-capitalist opinions and hardly a Silly Valley shill -- not from hackernews or YComb.

(Anyways, as annoyed as I am by plenty of other commenters here, there's also plenty of people who contribute here who don't fit your stereotype.)

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#177

Post by DrScientist »

sanderjd wrote: post #168
bsenftner wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have an evil cabal of enshitification enforcers in the form of the entire advertising and marketing industry. They enforce the group think impressed on society, and will not put any energy into anything not following the current zeitgeist of shitty exploitation and only the legally required (reluctant) fair treatment of their consumer and their employees. Our society voices, both journalism and advertising/marketi…

I think you've missed the point of the parent comment. The point is that the entire model only exists in symbiosis with what you call "enshitification enforcers". There is no mass market social media without the "evil cabal... of the advertising and marketing industry". There is no other model that can pay the bills for a site with hundreds of millions of active users posting their own content with mostly no restrain…

Exactly. Well put.

The model that isn't sustainable is a permanently investor funded one.

Often when these products launch - they have zero advertising, zero features to make money - they are totally aimed at growing market share - totally focused on the user.

Then it's inevitably downhill from there - whether it's people not being prepared to pay ( eg Blue ticks ) or complaining about advertising or scrapping of data.

One of the damaging effects of the large amount of investor funded products is that it makes it very difficult for the user supported ( paid ) ones to thrive.

Perhaps the current state is because we are not at equilibrium - and as regulation, and the market matures it will become a bit more sane.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#178

Post by dynamorando »

pmoriarty wrote: post #175
sanderjd wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've missed the point of the parent comment. The point is that the entire model only exists in symbiosis with what you call "enshitification enforcers". There is no mass market social media without the "evil cabal... of the advertising and marketing industry". There is no other model that can pay the bills for a site with hundreds of millions of active users posting their own content with mostly no restrain…

"There is no other model that can pay the bills for a site with hundreds of millions of active users posting their own content with mostly no restraint." The government can. These companies could be nationalized, or the government could make their own competing sites if they were interested in doing so. But they're just not. It takes more than just the means. It takes a will to do it.

I blogged about this yesterday after seeing a similar post on HN

https://dynamorando.pages.dev/blog/the-public-web/

Though I am not sure the political will exists.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#179

Post by DrScientist »

pmoriarty wrote: post #175
sanderjd wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've missed the point of the parent comment. The point is that the entire model only exists in symbiosis with what you call "enshitification enforcers". There is no mass market social media without the "evil cabal... of the advertising and marketing industry". There is no other model that can pay the bills for a site with hundreds of millions of active users posting their own content with mostly no restrain…

"There is no other model that can pay the bills for a site with hundreds of millions of active users posting their own content with mostly no restraint." The government can. These companies could be nationalized, or the government could make their own competing sites if they were interested in doing so. But they're just not. It takes more than just the means. It takes a will to do it.

Sure that's an option.

In essence that's a user ( indirectly through taxes ) supported model.

In the UK, the BBC follows that model ( the license fee is in effect a tax in all but name ) - and it's model is constantly under attack from certain quarters.

Indeed the BBC has being doing pilots in the social space - with SOLID and data pods.

See https://www.bbc.co.uk/taster/pilots/together-pod

The key question here is any of this stuff actually important enough for centralized funded.

Let's not forget, there is also the spectre of government control - you know the government security services will have full access.

Re: Cory Doctorow: Platform Capitalism and the Curse of “Enshittification” [audio]

#180

Post by dynamorando »

sanderjd wrote: post #168
bsenftner wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have an evil cabal of enshitification enforcers in the form of the entire advertising and marketing industry. They enforce the group think impressed on society, and will not put any energy into anything not following the current zeitgeist of shitty exploitation and only the legally required (reluctant) fair treatment of their consumer and their employees. Our society voices, both journalism and advertising/marketi…

I think you've missed the point of the parent comment. The point is that the entire model only exists in symbiosis with what you call "enshitification enforcers". There is no mass market social media without the "evil cabal... of the advertising and marketing industry". There is no other model that can pay the bills for a site with hundreds of millions of active users posting their own content with mostly no restrain…

I’m curious - do you see a path forward for “public” social media?

I had half an idea yesterday on this from HN:

https://dynamorando.pages.dev/blog/the-public-web/

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