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Who cares about the Ivy League?

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Re: Who cares about the Ivy League?

#171

Post by alephnerd »

mrangle wrote: post #170
alephnerd wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> STEM isn't the point of going Ivy It is. Cornell, Princeton, and Columbia are all Top 10 CS programs. For natural sciences, all the Ivies top the charts. For med school, same story. > Real elites tend toward history and art majors. Some children of HNWI do major in history and art. Others will gladly major in STEM. Look at people like Bill Gates or half my hs. This isn't the 80s or 90s anymore. Post-2008, top publi…

Read "Class" by Fussell. Or don't and continue to guess where the lines are. Class distinctions and behaviors aren't intuitive. That book will help you.

I did.

I wrote my final thesis about this issue and initially entered the policy space to help solve this issue before I left out of disgust.

There is a good grad seminar about this at Princeton from a couple years ago - https://www.princeton.edu/~starr/560syl2020.html

The issue is the Fussell book represents the 80s/90s. Public institutions have gotten much more exclusive since then.

Re: Who cares about the Ivy League?

#172

Post by cudgy »

skizm wrote: post #44
uneekname wrote: post #30

I think the point about college mobility rates was an interesting one. But then the author lost me a bit: > what is the economic rationale for having a bunch of educational resources and top students concentrated in a few small elite schools? ... the country’s most talented people into the country’s most important jobs I don't think that's it at all. I believe nearly anyone could be among "the country's most talented…

FWIW, most Ivy League and other top schools (MIT, Stanford) offer extreme discounts on tuition for students with household income under around $150K. Often times they'll pay somewhere between 0-10% of the actual tuition. If your family makes less than $75k, I think you can go to most or all of these schools for free (in tuition at least, not sure about room/board/food).

So do you believe these schools are unbiased regarding admission to students that require such aid (nonprofitable) versus wealthy students that require no aid (profitable)? This article is pointing out that these (and likely lower ranked schools) are biased toward the profitable candidates. Given that is the case, it is a long-shot on top of a long-shot to be admitted to Ivy League without paying out of pocket.

Re: Who cares about the Ivy League?

#173

Post by cudgy »

uneekname wrote: post #54
skizm wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, most Ivy League and other top schools (MIT, Stanford) offer extreme discounts on tuition for students with household income under around $150K. Often times they'll pay somewhere between 0-10% of the actual tuition. If your family makes less than $75k, I think you can go to most or all of these schools for free (in tuition at least, not sure about room/board/food).

I'm glad they do that. But those kids still have to get in. Which is much more difficult for a kid graduating from an under-resourced high school. I went to a very privileged high school. There were so many eyeballs on my class' test scores, recommendations, personal essays...of course we were going to succeed. Most of us got into our top choice schools. You often need a lot more than money to get into these schools.

Money is at the root of everything you just mentioned.

Re: Who cares about the Ivy League?

#174

Post by mrangle »

alephnerd wrote: post #171
mrangle wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read "Class" by Fussell. Or don't and continue to guess where the lines are. Class distinctions and behaviors aren't intuitive. That book will help you.

I did. I wrote my final thesis about this issue and initially entered the policy space to help solve this issue before I left out of disgust. There is a good grad seminar about this at Princeton from a couple years ago - https://www.princeton.edu/~starr/560syl2020.html The issue is the Fussell book represents the 80s/90s. Public institutions have gotten much more exclusive since then.

You're obviously a bullshit artist

Re: Who cares about the Ivy League?

#175

Post by nearbuy »

uneekname wrote: post #140
nearbuy wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're trying to help our kids, it would be nice to know which interventions actually affect adult intelligence. The word gap research isn't a randomized trial. It mostly shows that children from poorer families in the US hear fewer words. It's difficult to study because interventions often produce positive effects in the short term that disappear by the time the child reaches adulthood.

> it would be nice to know which interventions actually affect adult intelligence sure, that would be nice. it does seem pretty clear that as a general rule, well-resourced students are more likely to get accepted into, and graduate from, elite schools. Happy to back that claim up with some research if you like. > The word gap research isn't a randomized trial No, its a growing body of research including many studies…

> well-resourced students are more likely to get accepted into, and graduate from, elite schools. Happy to back that claim up with some research if you like.

We agree on this, but it's also a major confounder for observational word gap studies. And though we try, it's very difficult to fully control for confounders.

The holy grail would be interventions that can improve adult intelligence but unfortunately a lot of interventions that look promising in short term studies see their benefits disappear by the time the children reach adulthood. There don't appear to be any long term studies on this yet (I know this is a big ask).

Re: Who cares about the Ivy League?

#176

Post by Nellyz »

dustincoates wrote: post #7

The author has a point about broad access to education and its effects on mobility, but overlooks something vital: to be in the ruling class, entry into these schools is very important. All but one of the members of the current Supreme Court went Ivy (and nearly all in the 20th century before), and while Congress is more diverse when it comes to undergrad (it would be very interesting to see grad school data), 5 of t…

[dead]

Re: Who cares about the Ivy League?

#177

Post by piuantiderp »

nostromo95 wrote: post #163
piuantiderp wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The top students across a population are hurt more from interacting with below average students than the below average is helped by interacting with them.

Would you mind quoting a source?

What do you think MIT and Stanford are about? Removing the noise....

Re: Who cares about the Ivy League?

#178

Post by w0m »

michaelt wrote: post #138
w0m wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And they can do that because of their good reputation, which is mostly based on tradition and perception. And possibly based somewhat on quality of education

I believe that ascar is arguing that when you're Harvard you don't actually need particularly good teaching, because you've already recruited students who are good at studying, taking tests, motivating themselves and suchlike. Don't you need to be a straight A student just to get in? After all, if someone came in a straight A student, and graduated a straight A student - can the school really claim credit for that?

> can the school really claim credit for that?

I went to a state school and studied CS. I have done OK for myself; started at a startup and have made steady progression.

A friend of mine went to a ~top 5 CS school - started at same startup I did, same month, for ~50% more $$. Did he learn more than me in school? Honestly talking through course loads and the like - he really did. I had to learn a ton independently/in the field that he had showed to him in a sophomore CS class.

That doesn't mean he was inherently a better engineer than me (~10 years later) - but it did mean he had a big leg up Day One.

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