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Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

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Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#171

Post by lutorm »

davidkatz wrote: post #56
lutorm wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The territories under question are not occupied, but disputed. Well, the UN security council, the UN general assembly, the US, the EU, and the International Court of Justice, among others, disagree with you there.

The term 'Occupied' is often used loosely, even in Israel itself. The version of 'Occupied' that I'd like to address means: Israel has no claim to any part of the West Bank, is hence illegally present in all parts of it, and should, by international law, withdraw. This version of 'Occupied' is not supported, as far as I know, by either the US, the EU or the UN security council. If you think it is, I'd be interested i…

I'd be interested in seeing some supporting data.

United Nations Security Council Resolution 446, adopted on March 22, 1979: ... Affirming once more that the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949 is applicable to the Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem. ... Calls once more upon Israel, as the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, to rescind its previous measures and to desist from taking any action which would result in changing the legal status and geographical nature and materially affecting the demographic composition of the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, and, in particular, not to transfer parts of its own civilian population into the occupied Arab territories; (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council_Resolution_...)

I don't see how any other conclusion can be drawn from the use of "occupy" in referring to the 4th Geneva Convention than that Israel is illegally present.

As a practical matter, you may be right that no one today realistically expects Israel to withdraw from the entire West Bank, but 40 years ago people pretty clearly felt differently.

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#172

Post by ucee054 »

berntb wrote: post #168
ucee054 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You wrote that you thought the Jews controlled the information in the US media... That is less than one step from the Zion protocols, quoted in the Hamas charter etc. This is not quite what I wrote, but whatever. Even if it were, it's not just the Okhrana, the Nazis and Hamas who say stuff like this either, it is also Zionist lobbyist Haim Saban (Link: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/05/10/100510fa_fact_...…

There are lobby groups in the media for every interest group. You argue that the jews control the media with very little support and ignore that it is a carbon copy of racist hate propaganda. You guys also wear white capes? >>The Israeli ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians caused the refugee problem in the first place You handpick facts and twist them. Some points: 1. There were lots of refugee problems in both worl…

"You handpick facts and twist them"

If you think the facts that I or the original poster (or anyone else) have presented about the Israeli treatment of innocent Palestinian civilians, or about Israeli public relations, are selective, then let's see all the facts.

That doesn't mean "let's change the subject to Sudan". It doesn't mean "let's call him an antisemite". It also doesn't mean "let's make stuff up".

For example, you claimed that Israel doesn't glorify infanticide and I provided the link showing that snipers from the IDF Givati Brigade glorify the shooting dead of fetuses enough to wear Tshirts about it. Or you said that I provided "very little support" for my contentions about Israeli public relations, when in fact I provided the term in Hebrew hasbara that any reader can google and wikipedia for and decide for themselves.

It looks pretty silly when you make up stuff that a reader can falsify by looking on the same web page.

Worst of all, you keep trying to allege that I said that Jews - control the media, when what I talked about was Israel supporters - organize public relations.

This is called ad-hominem. You are trying to label me as Hitler because you are on the wrong side of the facts about Israel's treatment of innocent Palestinian civilians, and so you can't stand seeing these facts on Hacker News and wish to censor them.

It is intellectually dishonest and I read it as a violation of the Hacker News Guideline: "When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names."

I will therefore not reply to you further.

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#173

Post by berntb »

ucee054 wrote: post #172
berntb wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lobby groups in the media for every interest group. You argue that the jews control the media with very little support and ignore that it is a carbon copy of racist hate propaganda. You guys also wear white capes? >>The Israeli ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians caused the refugee problem in the first place You handpick facts and twist them. Some points: 1. There were lots of refugee problems in both worl…

"You handpick facts and twist them" If you think the facts that I or the original poster (or anyone else) have presented about the Israeli treatment of innocent Palestinian civilians, or about Israeli public relations, are selective, then let's see all the facts. That doesn't mean "let's change the subject to Sudan". It doesn't mean "let's call him an antisemite". It also doesn't mean "let's make stuff up". For examp…

You didn't like that I wrote that you argued non seriously.

But you have nothing to say about the facts I argued that you handpicked, re expulsions for racist reasons (wrong religion) as compared to in the middle of a burning civil war, which both sides did?

So you have totally different standards for different sides.

I wrote that "Israel doesn't glorify infanticide"

>>snipers from the IDF Givati Brigade

I don't believe you are honest here, either.

You do realize that there is a difference between an official policy (mural paintings and celebrations when children are murdered with a knife in their sleep, etc) -- and the attitudes of individuals.

(You will find individuals with most any opinion in any country and in democracies they can express most of those opinions, too.)

I already made this point re T-shirts, you had nothing to say then either.

And so on. Keep this subject and the fanatics off HN.

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#174

Post by berntb »

ucee054 wrote: post #172
berntb wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lobby groups in the media for every interest group. You argue that the jews control the media with very little support and ignore that it is a carbon copy of racist hate propaganda. You guys also wear white capes? >>The Israeli ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians caused the refugee problem in the first place You handpick facts and twist them. Some points: 1. There were lots of refugee problems in both worl…

"You handpick facts and twist them" If you think the facts that I or the original poster (or anyone else) have presented about the Israeli treatment of innocent Palestinian civilians, or about Israeli public relations, are selective, then let's see all the facts. That doesn't mean "let's change the subject to Sudan". It doesn't mean "let's call him an antisemite". It also doesn't mean "let's make stuff up". For examp…

This might also be noted:

>>Worst of all, you keep trying to allege that I said that Jews - control the media, when what I talked about was Israel supporters - organize public relations.

You ignored the 1st sentence in what you comment:

"There are lobby groups in the media for every interest group. You argue that the jews control the media with very little support and ignore that it is a carbon copy of racist hate propaganda."

But you know that. You can only argue against straw men.

As my last words:

Repeatedly condemning a heterogeneous democracy based on T-shirts of a small subgroup.... That must be the most pathetic and dishonest garbage I've seen in my life.

Then you claim I am dishonest... I got vertigo. If you're a troll, congratulations on blood pressure raised by sheer dishonesty.

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#175

Post by DanBC »

berntb wrote: post #168
ucee054 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You wrote that you thought the Jews controlled the information in the US media... That is less than one step from the Zion protocols, quoted in the Hamas charter etc. This is not quite what I wrote, but whatever. Even if it were, it's not just the Okhrana, the Nazis and Hamas who say stuff like this either, it is also Zionist lobbyist Haim Saban (Link: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/05/10/100510fa_fact_...…

There are lobby groups in the media for every interest group. You argue that the jews control the media with very little support and ignore that it is a carbon copy of racist hate propaganda. You guys also wear white capes? >>The Israeli ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians caused the refugee problem in the first place You handpick facts and twist them. Some points: 1. There were lots of refugee problems in both worl…

> This is the result of letting this subject onto HN.

Yes, exactly. This subject will always, without fail, produce vitriolic hate-filled comments, without possibility of changing opinions.

Ann will say "Look at how $GROUP does this"; Bob will accuse Ann of blatant anti-semitic racism while Charles will accuse Ann of ignoring the blatant human-rights abuses against some other group.

This is entirely predictable, and is why subjects like this do not belong on HN.

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#176

Post by berntb »

ucee054 wrote: post #172
berntb wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lobby groups in the media for every interest group. You argue that the jews control the media with very little support and ignore that it is a carbon copy of racist hate propaganda. You guys also wear white capes? >>The Israeli ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians caused the refugee problem in the first place You handpick facts and twist them. Some points: 1. There were lots of refugee problems in both worl…

"You handpick facts and twist them" If you think the facts that I or the original poster (or anyone else) have presented about the Israeli treatment of innocent Palestinian civilians, or about Israeli public relations, are selective, then let's see all the facts. That doesn't mean "let's change the subject to Sudan". It doesn't mean "let's call him an antisemite". It also doesn't mean "let's make stuff up". For examp…

After calming down, some well meant advice.

I realise that conspiracy theories, intolerance and similar breed like flies in dictatorships. Afaik, it was the same in e.g. Eastern Germany.

But even if you grew up in a non-democracy, you should be smarter than condemning a whole country for what some individuals do. Especially in this case, with all the very different political movements inside Israel.

I realise you were taught that kind of "reasoning" in school and by media, but start thinking for yourself. For your own sake.

For instance, consider the anti semitic-inspired conspiracy theories about media control -- if you see your other garbage (T-shirts, etc) you ought to realise that you've been fed with some outrageous lies. Sooo... there might be things in those US media which you don't know, right?

All the above assumes you are just brainwashed by your social environment and not consciously doing propaganda.

(That you are unable to acknowledge a point and either ignores it or start with judging countries for a T-shirt(!) do speak for you being a hate mongering propagandist. But I am not certain.)

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#177

Post by ucee054 »

DanBC wrote: post #175
berntb wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lobby groups in the media for every interest group. You argue that the jews control the media with very little support and ignore that it is a carbon copy of racist hate propaganda. You guys also wear white capes? >>The Israeli ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians caused the refugee problem in the first place You handpick facts and twist them. Some points: 1. There were lots of refugee problems in both worl…

> This is the result of letting this subject onto HN. Yes, exactly. This subject will always, without fail, produce vitriolic hate-filled comments, without possibility of changing opinions. Ann will say "Look at how $GROUP does this"; Bob will accuse Ann of blatant anti-semitic racism while Charles will accuse Ann of ignoring the blatant human-rights abuses against some other group. This is entirely predictable, and…

Why? The alternative to censoring the topic is to let all the facts emerge.

berntb can mention Hamas bombing civilians and Jewish expulsions, and I can mention the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and Israeli actions against the Occupy movement. I don't need to negate his points or convince him of anything.

Once all the facts are on the table we can then trust the Hacker News readership to be intelligent enough to decide for themselves.

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#178

Post by DanBC »

ucee054 wrote: post #177
DanBC wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the result of letting this subject onto HN. Yes, exactly. This subject will always, without fail, produce vitriolic hate-filled comments, without possibility of changing opinions. Ann will say "Look at how $GROUP does this"; Bob will accuse Ann of blatant anti-semitic racism while Charles will accuse Ann of ignoring the blatant human-rights abuses against some other group. This is entirely predictable, and…

Why? The alternative to censoring the topic is to let all the facts emerge. berntb can mention Hamas bombing civilians and Jewish expulsions, and I can mention the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and Israeli actions against the Occupy movement. I don't need to negate his points or convince him of anything. Once all the facts are on the table we can then trust the Hacker News readership to be intelligent enough t…

Please stop.

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#179

Post by DanBC »

ucee054 wrote: post #177
DanBC wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the result of letting this subject onto HN. Yes, exactly. This subject will always, without fail, produce vitriolic hate-filled comments, without possibility of changing opinions. Ann will say "Look at how $GROUP does this"; Bob will accuse Ann of blatant anti-semitic racism while Charles will accuse Ann of ignoring the blatant human-rights abuses against some other group. This is entirely predictable, and…

Why? The alternative to censoring the topic is to let all the facts emerge. berntb can mention Hamas bombing civilians and Jewish expulsions, and I can mention the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and Israeli actions against the Occupy movement. I don't need to negate his points or convince him of anything. Once all the facts are on the table we can then trust the Hacker News readership to be intelligent enough t…

...the fact that you misuse the term "ethnic cleansing" is annoying enough for me to respond, but this is my last reply to this thread.

County X has two populations, the zarbs and the tiwks. The zarbs kill all the tiwks. The zarbs have been ethnically cleansed.

You may think this is a trivial point. But you're talking to an international audience, and you're talking about a subject where language is analysed in minute detail for perceived insult or support or whatnot.

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#180

Post by berntb »

ucee054 wrote: post #177
DanBC wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the result of letting this subject onto HN. Yes, exactly. This subject will always, without fail, produce vitriolic hate-filled comments, without possibility of changing opinions. Ann will say "Look at how $GROUP does this"; Bob will accuse Ann of blatant anti-semitic racism while Charles will accuse Ann of ignoring the blatant human-rights abuses against some other group. This is entirely predictable, and…

Why? The alternative to censoring the topic is to let all the facts emerge. berntb can mention Hamas bombing civilians and Jewish expulsions, and I can mention the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and Israeli actions against the Occupy movement. I don't need to negate his points or convince him of anything. Once all the facts are on the table we can then trust the Hacker News readership to be intelligent enough t…

>>The alternative to censoring the topic is to let all the facts emerge.

That would be a normal discussion. This isn't.

When I noted the official acceptance and idolising of terror, even murdering sleeping children with a knife, you "countered" by judging a very heterogeneous country by a T-shirt...

Just to not let the Israeli side be less than evil -- or better than "your" side in anything.

I commented on the insanity of the "argument" three times -- you just wrote that your T-shirt claim proved something!

1) Can you give an example of worse argumentation, ever?

2) Do you really think anyone wants to read that kind of garbage?

Edit: So it is clear. My point is that the facts won't emerge when the people debating lie and use obfuscation (i.e. lots of text) when they are plain wrong.

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