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3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

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Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#171
post #84
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are used in all kinds of products that I personaly use everyday from pans to dental floss. And the replacements are not better, they just dont have studies yet that prove they are toxic...

We've worked to reduce plastics & chemicals in our house. Some things we do: * We use silk dental floss (we use Radius) * We use glass storage containers instead of Tupperware * For cooking, we use All-Clad. * If a recipe calls for non-stick (e.g., pancakes) I use a braiser from Le Creuset, which works reasonably well. (Edited: formatting)

> If a recipe calls for non-stick (e.g., pancakes)

My dad has made pancakes for my entire life without ever using, or owning, a non-stick pan.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but you said the company would be sold off in individual parts to pay the debt. My point is that selling it off as a complete company or mini companies doesn't really impact the liability. Both would be possible. What matters from a debt or liability perspective is the terms of the settlement. In reality, the company is probably worth more as a single entity, sorry I wouldn't be surprised…

You sell of the formulas for scotch tape, and maybe the factories that make it as long as it is sequestered from the PFAS type stuff. You sell of the audio tape/VHS factories (haha). You sell off the patents/copyrights for all of that stuff as well. Those are the salable parts.

You can do that, but it isnt very practical.

My point is that the whole thing is sellable. Propbably with a new stock offering for the whole company as a single entity.

If there is a huge judgement larger than the market cap, the most likely oputcome would be chapter 11 bankruptcy wiping out the investors, and the company moving forward as a single entity with a new ticker and new investors

This is the best of all worlds because it maximises the money recovered for damages and debtors.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cast iron skillets just take a bit of getting used and are then zero maintenance and last for ever. The problems people have with them are usually due to trying to season them and doing it so badly (due to abundant online misinformation) they'd have been better off not doing it at all.

How would you suggest seasoning and maintaining cast iron?

I just use mine, always with some oil. I never season it as a separate process.

Eggs pancakes, fish, no problems.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#174
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not cheap, but Scanpan makes great non-stick pans. PFAS-free, dishwashable, metal utensil safe. https://www.scanpan.com/haptiq-8-inch-fry-pan-40141-configur...

I don't think Scanpan is PFA free: https://www.scanpan.com/chemical-components .

Oh, huh. It certainly seems not. That is disappointing.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thinking about buying one. Would I be wrong in assuming it was just a matter of the order: (really) heat the pan, add the oil, and then whatever you need to cook?

Care is a big component as well. The real power of cast iron is that you can renew the coating when it wears off by re-seasoning the pan. Using a drying oil like flax, you coat the pan and heat the oil until it starts smoking, then wait for it to stop smoking. Repeat this process a couple of times and you have a durable non-stick surface again. If you ever have the surface roughen up you can also strip the old season…

It's kind of funny that heating up the oil to the point of smoking is considered a healthy alternative to teflon coated pans. When oil is heated up to the point of smoking it produces carcinogenic compounds.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cast iron skillets just take a bit of getting used and are then zero maintenance and last for ever. The problems people have with them are usually due to trying to season them and doing it so badly (due to abundant online misinformation) they'd have been better off not doing it at all.

How would you suggest seasoning and maintaining cast iron?

Literally just cook with it. The main thing with everything except for teflon pans is you need to bring them up to temp before cooking, and you need to use some fat of some kind (olive oil, butter, whatever). The oil itself will provide the "non stick" until it's seasoned, and it'll also do the seasoning. You can waste a bunch of time doing seasoning as a separate step (light coating of oil, bring up to smoke point, let cool, repeat) but this is mostly just a giant waste of time. Just cook on the dang thing, and don't be afraid to toss in a chunk of butter or some oil. It won't kill ya :-)

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're okay with companies not being responsible, but you want the press to help you out here? I feel the opposite. Companies should be responsible for poisoning us, and the press has zero to do with it.

I don’t think that the problem some posters are alluding to is the kind where we should be placing blame. The problem is: - Humans invent something useful and cool. - Humans discover that the cool and useful thing is toxic as fuck, but only after years go by. It takes years for the awareness of the toxicity to become widespread enough for everyone to concur it’s a problem. Often, we only find out about the toxicity a…

[deleted]

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cast iron skillets just take a bit of getting used and are then zero maintenance and last for ever. The problems people have with them are usually due to trying to season them and doing it so badly (due to abundant online misinformation) they'd have been better off not doing it at all.

How would you suggest seasoning and maintaining cast iron?

The typical cooking uses to which a skillet is put season it automatically, because it spends its life being oily. The polymer coating known as "seasoning" forms naturally from long contact with oil (even without heat). So the idea of seasoning being something you have to put on the pan and then maintain is wrong. You can explicitly "season the pan" as a sort of bootstrapping to get that layer started off quicker and protect it from rust in the early days, but it's optional and doesn't need maintaining afterwards. An alternative to protect it from rust (and encourage the formation of the polymer) when it's new is to brush it with oil before putting it away. Once it's broken in (you'll know) it doesn't require special care. You can scrub it, use washing up liquid, whatever.

If you do season the pan, the most important thing is to wipe off all the oil after applying it. You brush the oil on and then wipe it completely dry. It should be dry to the touch and matt, not shiny. You should not be able to see ANY oil. The microscopic invisible bit of oil left is all you want. Only then do you heat it. The temperature doesn't matter much. 180 C or so in an oven is what I've used. The kind of oil used also doesn't matter. For best results do the whole thing 3 or more times. If you bake a visible layer of oil onto your pan you're not seasoning it, you're just covering it in burnt crap.

And it's optional!

Note that the above is for skillets, which self-season because they're used for frying. (Hence "seasoning" - i.e. using them for a while.) The story is very different for some other things. For example, we have a dutch oven used for baking bread, which is not an oily process. For that you really do have to season. Ours came pre-seasoned but it rusted after an unfortunate baking mishap and I had to electrolyse it and then give it 5 rounds of oven seasoning (as described above), after which it has been a zero-maintenance workhorse.

Griddles are absolute fucking bastards and will ruin your life.

If you ever do electrolyse any cast iron (it's great fun and will restore anything), A) pay a few quid for graphite electrodes (overgrown pencil leads, available on Amazon), rather than using an old stainless steel knife and producing hexavalent chromium (Erin Brockovich's favourite chemical) and B) use a bench power supply because nobody sells the kind of car battery charger all the online tutorials tell you to use any more (they're all pulsed ones now, completely useless for electrolysis).

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A plain cast-iron skillet works flawlessly for pancakes and crepes, FWIW.

Thinking about buying one. Would I be wrong in assuming it was just a matter of the order: (really) heat the pan, add the oil, and then whatever you need to cook?

Animal fats. Not vegetable oils. Vegetable oils polymerize to a sticky substance. Animal fats carbonize and protect the metal. Also using a metal spatula is a must in cast iron. The metal spatula keeps the surface smooth which enhances the non-stick property. Also wash after use and spread a little fat in it to prevent rusting. Don't scour. Just wash with soap and water.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#180
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lawsuit is about harm . If it's a civil lawsuit, you can absolutely be sued for doing things which you know to be harmful to others, even if they aren't crimes. That's what a tort is. The purpose of such private lawsuits it to give people a legal mechanism for redress that doesn't involve physically attacking each other or trying to legislate everything.

>know to be harmful to others This is the key fact. I had a look at the evidence, and I'm not seeing any harm myself. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per-_and_polyfluoroalkyl_subst... Taking an example of developmental problems, there is this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4344877/ but it doesn't seem to have been replicated, at least in mice: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC53456…

What is your goal with this comment?

> I had a look at the evidence

The evidence isn't difficult to search for, and your 30 second "look" at two sources from the Wikipedia article doesn't exactly amount to a meta analysis.

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