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Rust: The wrong people are resigning

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Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#171

Post by adamrezich »

ra1231963 wrote: post #135
adamrezich wrote: post #71

> The recent incident with ThePHD’s keynote downgrade was not racially motivated, thankfully, but… if that’s what it looks like from the outside, and any form of official communication is still days or weeks away, does it really make a difference? who actually perceives this situation this way? why would anyone perceive this situation this way, by default? this statement is needlessly inflammatory to a ridiculous deg…

I’m with you, but have you not been around the last few years? American society is absolutely obsessed with white supremacy. This is true in the media, the highest levels of government, and in big tech. I personally listened to paid guest lecturers tell me all white people are racist, and those who deny it are proving their racism. In my workplace. People are brainwashed to believe and see this stuff at this point, a…

sure, and this is precisely why I left Redmond after 2016 and gave up on my lifelong dream of becoming a professional game developer—this poisonous culture was just too much for me to grapple with irl. at one convention, I directly experienced a white person apologizing to a black person for "being white". at the same convention, I went to a panel, given by a woman, with a black woman who I was seeing at the time, and when I asked her after the panel what she thought of it, her only thought was, "it was mostly white dudes in there." I packed my bags and moved away shortly thereafter—it was quite clear that staying immersed in this insanity any longer would have significant negative effects on my mental health.

the idea that any contemporary professional organization—but especially an overtly progressive-minded organization like the Rust Foundation—could even have the possibility of hiding secret undercover racist bigots deep within its leadership such as to make the above highlighted statement a necessary disclaimer (as opposed to a superfluous virtue-signal) is so far beyond insane that I don't even know where to begin.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#172

Post by hotfixguru »

fb03 wrote: post #40
shri_krishna wrote: post #11

> Part of me is very disappointed at ThePrimeagen, the Twitch streamer / YouTuber with whom I used to be friendly, for milking those controversies for every view and sub possible. For riling up the masses, adding fuel to the fire, creating the exact opposite of the climate we need to solve these issues. It is ridiculous that ThePrimeagen has been called out (without whom I wouldn't have taken interest in learning Rus…

Pretty shitty move to single out ThePrimeagen. He has done more for the Rust community in raising awareness of bullshit and also educating people on the technical intricacies of Rust (much akin the Jon Gjengset videos) than a lot of these 'in' folks.

I wonder what he tries to achieve by calling him out. Seems like the only outcome is drama, and for what?

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#173

Post by CrazyStat »

gishbunker wrote: post #167
CrazyStat wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One community member made one decision for one conference which they probably thought wouldn't be a big deal (I understand now that it is, but to an outsider "keynote downgraded to regular presentation" don't seem like much). One person should not have been able to reverse the decision that was made by a collective leadership vote. The fact that was allowed to happen is a failure of governance. One of the people wh…

It's a bug. Bugs happen. Systems are still systems whether they deal with people or code. When big bugs happen, we evaluate why, and improve the system so it performs better next time. We don't blame people, we focus on what allowed people to make bad decisions. In this case, it sounds like a bad decision making process that needs a patch.

Sure, but if you don't have authority to make the patch, and especially if this sort of thing has happened repeatedly--as the linked post suggests--sometimes it's easier and better for your sanity to just leave the system.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#174

Post by andrei_says_ »

d3nj4l wrote: post #8

In a way, I find this entire saga incredibly funny. There is so much hand wringing and pearl clutching at something that is supposedly in the shadows - this cabal of four or five people making decisions - that it makes the entire Rust "community" look juvenile. This is the kind of internecine conflict I should see in Anime discord servers, not about a language whose governance involves multiple major corporations!

> This is the kind of internecine conflict I should see in Anime discord servers, not about a language whose governance involves multiple major corporations!

I love this.

On one hand this is an indicator for our expectations. Adult stuff should be handled by adults, with wisdom and maturity.

On the other hand it is a sample of reality as it is (distinct from the shoulds we project) - no, corporations and adult organizations are not led/ruled by mature people, and not everyone acts wisely all of the time. This is the reality.

I like to believe that acknowledging that and creating organizations to be resilient in the context of immaturity, pettiness, confusion… humanity(!) is the way.

We do have some examples of nature leadership but these are the exceptions to the rule. People are people, let’s figure in their humanity.

So what I’m interested in are org structures supporting and correcting for fairness, wisdom, maturity.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#175

Post by Ygg2 »

serial_dev wrote: post #53

these things keep happening and it shows a deeper problem with rust leadership and unaccountability. Just like with the trademark policy fiasco just a month ago (which was also not the first Rust Drama), every community member - from speakers to organizers and regular language users - is confused, frustrated, feeling unappreciated with very slow official response and clarification. I don't want witch hunting, I under…

> Just like with the trademark policy fiasco just a month ago

I think those are different. Rust trademark policy is more a case of miscommunication, while this seems more deliberate.

Rust Foundation iirc made a draft statement but rather than saying "We'll take community feedback into consideration" went with a much more vague "We'll might take this into consideration". At least that's my impressions.

It was fairly bad trademark policy forbidding crates from using rust and cargo. `cargo x` 99% of the time was some cargo plugin.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#176

Post by mustache_kimono »

runjake wrote: post #116
meindnoch wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? A cursory google search says it's a guy called Hector Marcan. Is this wrong?

As far as I know, this person, who goes by “Asahi Lina” is not Hector Marcan.

I think the widespread belief is Asahi Lina is an avatar for Hector.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#177

Post by krainboltgreene »

ra1231963 wrote: post #17
throwawaymaths wrote: post #6

> downgrade was not racially motivated, thankfully Who would have suspected this was racially motivated? Not to defend any actions by anyone, but a keynote is an unusual place to talk about experimental feature a language is considering (unless it's a small component of a bigger update/forecast). That said once the decision was made they should have gone through with it.

> who would have suspected this was racially motivated? For the last several years, there are many people and groups who have gotten tremendous positive feedback from being a victim. So, many people would jump to this conclusion for outrage, sympathy, and signaling their virtue. Thankfully, it seems it may be coming to an end now since it’s disruptive and at odds with reality.

> there are many people and groups who have gotten tremendous positive feedback from being a victim.

Just making shit up to get mad about.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#178

Post by alex_lav »

OSS is funny to me in some capacities. A marketed positive of OSS is "You can fork it and make your own changes!", and yet, when someone actually does this with a prolific project (Rust and Node.js are the big two that come to mind), they're met with "How dare they! This is exploitive and unproductive!"

I'm not sure what the solution is, or if there is one, but the prospect of forking a major project and being met with positivity seems to be pretty unproven.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#180

Post by krainboltgreene »

gishbunker wrote: post #167
CrazyStat wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One community member made one decision for one conference which they probably thought wouldn't be a big deal (I understand now that it is, but to an outsider "keynote downgraded to regular presentation" don't seem like much). One person should not have been able to reverse the decision that was made by a collective leadership vote. The fact that was allowed to happen is a failure of governance. One of the people wh…

It's a bug. Bugs happen. Systems are still systems whether they deal with people or code. When big bugs happen, we evaluate why, and improve the system so it performs better next time. We don't blame people, we focus on what allowed people to make bad decisions. In this case, it sounds like a bad decision making process that needs a patch.

Thank goodness you're here to tell us what literally no one thought about.
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