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Kissinger's killing fields

theintercept.com

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Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#171

Post by vlovich123 »

hummer_embark wrote: post #155
vlovich123 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s an interesting take. Only a year or two ahead of the Ukrainian election Trump was threatening withholding agreed to and paid for arms shipments to Ukraine unless they announce investigations into Biden’s son. His people also blatantly lied claiming meetings with Russians ahead of elections were just about adoption policy whereas really it was about lifting the Magnitsky act which was the reason Russia banned U…

The contact with Russia prior to inauguration was for lobbying on behalf of Israel. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/01/michael-flyn...

Nope. Totally different meeting: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/08/06/us/politics/t...

The Trump team had lots of contact with Russia about all sorts of topics. By the way as far as I know, lobbying the Russians against the interests of the current government is extremely rare and rises to the level of what Reagan did to Carter with the Iran hostage crisis. There’s even laws on the books iirc that this isn’t allowed although no one seems to want to try enforcing it.

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#172

Post by fsckboy »

hayst4ck wrote: post #165
fsckboy wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone thinks peace is lack of violence, how do you even communicate with them when you think peace is the presence of justice. how about just say "justice" or "presence of justice" instead of trying to redefine the word peace? Then, for example, the catch phrase "no justice, no peace" will make sense, it means "if we don't get justice, we will not be peaceful"

In the context of slavery, when the slave owner tells a slave what to do, and they don't fight back, I wouldn't call that peace. In the context of Taiwan, I wouldn't call China's coercion of Taiwan peace even though guns aren't firing. In the context of Ukraine, I wouldn't call the period after Russia's invasion of Ukraine to seize Crimea "peace" even though it was just "little green men" walking into Crimea. I would…

> Why is it a "catch phrase" to you, but a "battle cry" to me? What do those words betray about the ideas that exist in our heads.

I was raised from diapers to be a good Marxist, and what is betrayed to me is that these "battle cries" are yet another packaging of Marxist class struggle agitprop. But I've put that all behind me as symptoms of a personality disorder, and now they just ring false and empty. You are betrayed to me as still inspired by dreams of a class struggle, and winning it. Against the wall, Romanovs! Liquidate the bourgeoisie! Abolish the family, turn in your parents! No justice, no peace!

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#173

Post by [deleted] »

fsckboy wrote: post #172
hayst4ck wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the context of slavery, when the slave owner tells a slave what to do, and they don't fight back, I wouldn't call that peace. In the context of Taiwan, I wouldn't call China's coercion of Taiwan peace even though guns aren't firing. In the context of Ukraine, I wouldn't call the period after Russia's invasion of Ukraine to seize Crimea "peace" even though it was just "little green men" walking into Crimea. I would…

> Why is it a "catch phrase" to you, but a "battle cry" to me? What do those words betray about the ideas that exist in our heads. I was raised from diapers to be a good Marxist, and what is betrayed to me is that these "battle cries" are yet another packaging of Marxist class struggle agitprop. But I've put that all behind me as symptoms of a personality disorder, and now they just ring false and empty. You are betr…

[deleted]

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#174

Post by vlovich123 »

int_19h wrote: post #121
vlovich123 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a big prize. And it had been Russian from the 1700s until 1956. And now it is again. Except the USSR released it. Nothing to do with the US. And Russia trying to recapture it now has nothing to do with the fact that it’s been it’s own country for almost 50 years. Not to mention Ukraine has repeatedly sought entrance into NATO for exactly this fear and Russia has dissuaded NATO from considering it under threat…

Crimea does indeed make for a good naval base, but Russia has more options that aren't much inferior - Novorossiysk, for example. More importantly, Black Sea itself is strategically not very interesting for Russia because Turkey (a NATO country) controls the straits, and thus in any big war involving NATO the Russian fleet would be locked in anyway. No, it is largely a cultural thing. There's considerable evidence th…

While Turkey is a NATO ally, I wouldn’t really rely on them, at least not under Erdogan:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/turkeys-erdogan-touts-s...

Sure, it’s unclear Erdogan would go so far as to violate NATO treaties, but I wouldn’t call Turkey the US’s unabashed ally.

I don’t know that I buy the whole cultural angle when Putin very reliably acts squarely within the model of realpolitik power acquisition.

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#175

Post by [deleted] »

pessimizer wrote: post #40

Neither major US party has significantly different policy than Kissinger, and currently both are significantly more aggressive. They also both believe that Domino Theory is true. The major difference is that Kissinger and Nixon opened up China, while the US sees the comfort and wealth of Chinese people as the biggest threat facing the world today. Kissinger is a scapegoat that lets everyone else off. He's another Jud…

[deleted]

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#176

Post by sabayapitman »

pessimizer wrote: post #40

Neither major US party has significantly different policy than Kissinger, and currently both are significantly more aggressive. They also both believe that Domino Theory is true. The major difference is that Kissinger and Nixon opened up China, while the US sees the comfort and wealth of Chinese people as the biggest threat facing the world today. Kissinger is a scapegoat that lets everyone else off. He's another Jud…

  but it's a trope that we blame on the one Jewish guy everything a bunch of WASPs did on his advice.
see

  White Man's Burden, Ari Shavit, Apr 3, 2003

  The war in Iraq was conceived by 25 neoconservative intellectuals, most of them Jewish, who are pushing President Bush to change the course of history. Two of them, journalists William Kristol and Charles Krauthammer, say it's possible. But another journalist, Thomas Friedman (not part of the group), is skeptical
https://web.archive.org/web/20220528031529/https://www.haare...
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