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When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of your ability to think

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Re: When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of your ability to think

#171

This reads like Plato's warning (through Socrates' words) 2,400 years ago that writing will make people forgetful: "For this invention [writing] will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them. You have inven…

Remembering changes memory.

It embeds what is remembered in a current context.

Did Plato take this into account?

Re: When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of your ability to think

#172

This reads like Plato's warning (through Socrates' words) 2,400 years ago that writing will make people forgetful: "For this invention [writing] will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them. You have inven…

Plato's criticism is very true on an individual basis. What he didn't consider was the effect the written word had on a social scale in terms of being able to exchange ideas over physical and temporal distances. It turns out that was a greater benefit that to some extent makes up for losing the exceptionally well trained memory of scholars from a verbal tradition. Not that that last part isn't a loss though, and his…

> people you talk to online are just googling up wikipedia articles to base their world view upon on the fly.

Well you're lucky if they do; often they just make stuff up on the fly depending on what they saw on some dubious media or social network.

Re: When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of your ability to think

#173

This reads like Plato's warning (through Socrates' words) 2,400 years ago that writing will make people forgetful: "For this invention [writing] will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them. You have inven…

Plato.. wasn't that the guy who invented the acronym "IIRC"?

I think that was actually homer. “Speak muse tell us the deeds of…” (or something to that effect)

Re: When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of your ability to think

#174
I have the feeling this is missing on what people want ChatGPT to do for them.

They're still communicating their exact thoughts to the prompt, and will adjust to get exactly something matching their intent.

To take an example, asking ChatGPT to write a professional sounding resignation letter might look absurd to people who value writing in itself, but the people doing it are still expressing a very specific intent: "I quit". The rest is to them useless decorum that can be handled by a random word generator.

I kinda hope that ChatGPT will push people to actually write shorter and more to the point. If a bot can understand their message in 40 words, why send their fellow humans 400 words of useless prose ?

Re: When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of your ability to think

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, we'd never know what he said had it not been written down.

Plato gives multiple hints across his works about the esoteric, unwritten teachings [1]. We can only speculate about the content; for me, they were surely tied with the Eleusinian Mysteries [2]: early, myths-driven psychonautics based on ergot. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato%27s_unwritten_doctrines [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries

[deleted]

Re: When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of your ability to think

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plato gives multiple hints across his works about the esoteric, unwritten teachings [1]. We can only speculate about the content; for me, they were surely tied with the Eleusinian Mysteries [2]: early, myths-driven psychonautics based on ergot. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato%27s_unwritten_doctrines [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries

I also think he had a bunch written teachings that were intended only for his students. Obviously they’re lost to time.

With some luck and intelligence maybe we will discover more about the past in the future [1].

[1] https://scrollprize.org

Re: When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of your ability to think

#177
post #14

Sometimes I wonder if I'm using the same ChatGPT as everyone else. I pay for GPT4 access in ChatGPT, and it is a really terrible writer. I also pay for Copilot, and I think a can count the number of times it has been helpful with one hand. I'm trying to get on this hype train, but I'm left with an empty feeling every time I try to seriously spend some time with these new tools.

I paid for it too, but I'm slowly figuring out its utility.

The trick is to use it for what it's good at.

For example, I had this vague, fuzzy memory of a talk I saw online about a decade ago. It was about a database modelling paradigm. All I remembered was that the country it was developed in was in northern Europe, the methodology was based on splitting out columns as individual objects, and that it had funny little icons such as diamonds on the edges connecting things together in a graph.

Good luck finding that on Google. I had tried and failed. It was bugging me, because I needed something like it for my work, but for the life of me I couldn't dig up the reference.

Chat GPT 4 found it just three prompts: https://www.anchormodeling.com/

That's insane.

Re: When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of your ability to think

#178

I just had an interview candidate come up with questions to ask us about the company. It sounded formulaic and when I queried it, they said they used ChatGPT. I’m not disappointed, but I’m now wondering how much thinking was left to AI than being genuinely inquisitive.

baffling. I am a huge fan of AI & chatgpt but that would be a giant red flag for me.

Someone AI'ing part of a human process is basically saying "this is BS and not worth my time". They may or may not be right.

I think questions about the company should be genuine (it is a good chance to find out what you need to make the decision). But many people think questions about the company are another hoop, i.e. the interviewer is using their questions as another measure, so they need to ask the correct questions.

Re: When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of your ability to think

#179
post #14

Sometimes I wonder if I'm using the same ChatGPT as everyone else. I pay for GPT4 access in ChatGPT, and it is a really terrible writer. I also pay for Copilot, and I think a can count the number of times it has been helpful with one hand. I'm trying to get on this hype train, but I'm left with an empty feeling every time I try to seriously spend some time with these new tools.

How impressed or unimpressed you are by it is a direct reflection of yourself and what you are trying to achieve with it. I find zero value in it. Others are very impressed by it, but I'm not very impressed by what they hold up as an example of its output. Sometimes I can only laugh when it's horribly wrong, but they herald it as amazing. The whole thing reminds me of the blockchain hype train. Still using and loving…

You're not impressed!?

Here on HN, a few days ago, there was a post about Microsoft publishing a GitHub repo that contained a "table recognizer AI". Basically, you feed it PDFs that contain horrible scanned images of finance records, and it spits out Excel spreadsheets. For some reason, Microsoft had just "thrown this over the fence" and released it to the public for free. This, despite man-years of effort developing the thing. It was working, and everything.

I made a comment wondering if Chat GPT 4 with the vision extension could solve the same problem. One of the devs that had worked on the aforementioned AI (for years!) mentioned that yes, yes it can.

Game over.

Those years of effort had just been replaced with a one-sentence English-language prompt that starts with "Please output a table from..."

If this doesn't blow your mind, then... I don't know how to help you understand just how much has changed, virtually overnight.

Re: When you lose the ability to write, you also lose some of your ability to think

#180
> Most people hate to write as much as they hate math.

This resonates deeply. All that matters for our lived experience and our social interactions is how we train our brains, both individually and at collective scale through agreed symbolic modes of expression. Brains are so plastic that wonderfully different alternatives are possible and we almost certainly have not discovered them all.

Ancient bards were learning and reciting day-long epic poems by just hearing them. There are still cultures that train themselves to long recitations of text. I don't even know what that might feel like to have such a long sequence readily available in your brain.

But training our brains requires massive energy. Depending on individual and social characteristics people will stop training their brains when the going gets tough. Math is a great example. You could argue that chatGPT has a job because our public information repositories are so littered with low-density information (unstructured textual information) that its impossible to navigate. Some professions would go to great textual length to describe in an ambiguous and limited way something that can be described concisely with an equation.

Superficially at least, the impact of digital assistive tech is that we are being collectively dumbed down (just like we are becoming obese through the ready availability of massive amounts of fatty foods). Its a multi-pronged process: Before chatGPT decimated our writing skills, visual dissemination of information (which conveys less meaning but requires no training) has taken over like a raging wildfire. E.g., tiktok versus twitter.

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