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I was laid off in retaliation for anti-discrimination whistleblowing

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Re: I was laid off in retaliation for anti-discrimination whistleblowing

#171
"[I] also surfaced feedback that had been shared with me by my own engineering teams regarding ways in which Rune Lab’s technology was insufficient for clinical use."

"In each instance, I escalated this feedback to the appropriate members of the senior leadership team, and where appropriate, proposed refactors of common pain points. Synthesizing, evaluating, and sharing this feedback is a crucial component of any TPM’s day-to-day responsibilities. Yet many of my peers expressed fear of raising this feedback themselves, and were grateful that I was willing to do so for them."

Yeah, it's not just about the discrimination. If you start opposing leadership in their compagny decisions, wether you are justified or not doesn't matter, you're not going to last long in the compagny anyway.

If you disagree with your boss, leave, don't fight it because you don't have the power.

Re: I was laid off in retaliation for anti-discrimination whistleblowing

#172
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, "don't victim blame" isn't productive discussion, it's meant to end discussion.

Incorrect. You still just don't like it, and will not accept that it is an accurate statement about your comment. You are not entitled to have others entertain your bad narratives.

You know you had a perfect opportunity to try to convince me, right? Show me how "don't victim blame" is a productive statement that isn't meant to just immediately shut down the discussion. Show me how it leads to more questions and more discussion instead of silence. But instead, just restating your opinion as if it is objective, unquestionable fact.

Re: I was laid off in retaliation for anti-discrimination whistleblowing

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been in three different unions and never saw anything like that happen. Mostly I saw things like rampant sexual harassment and nepotism at every level. Anyone who so much as squeaked about things being wrong saw management and the union reps team up to screw the person for fucking with the status quo. Heck, at my last job like that, they were cousins/roommates. Unionized workplaces can be just as toxic as any ot…

> Anyone who so much as squeaked about things being wrong saw management and the union reps team up to screw the person for fucking with the status quo... Unionized workplaces can be just as toxic as any other workplace. This is true, but unlike any other workplace, if your union is filled with corruption and nepotism you can vote to change your union leadership or even to disband it entirely and replace it with a ne…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Hoffa

Face prison and death? No thank you, no job has ever been worth that.

Thinking that you're going to fix deep corruption via democratic process... You realize that this doesn't work in mainstream politics either, right? Only in the movies.

Re: I was laid off in retaliation for anti-discrimination whistleblowing

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without taking any position on this post itself or flagging of it: flagging has just become abusive. It needs serious reform, @dang. I can't speak for the original rationale, but it seems like the intent must be to remove posts or comments that are clearly offensive on some semi-legal grounds (obscene, advocating violence, etc.) Now it's become just "I don't like this." There are many possible reforms, but off the to…

I flagged it because it's exhausting sociopolitical drivel that has nothing to do with tech. If the company discriminated against this person, then prove it in court. Nobody here has sufficient information to make a determination one way or another. And none of us has an obligation to take the author at their word.

I don't care how many downvotes I get. An article about discrimination against marginalized groups in tech was flagged by "TechBro8615" because he is sick of "sociopolitical drivel." You can't make this shit up.

This is Hacker News distilled into a single article. If someone pitched this to The Onion, they'd throw it back as being too on-the-nose.

Thanks for reminding me that Tech Bros still do exist. I don't miss them.

Re: I was laid off in retaliation for anti-discrimination whistleblowing

#176
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, this kind of "fight" is basically what society is about, and it is unfortunately always hard earned to get anywhere, but i'm also honestly not sure there is a way around this. The principle you give is essentially limitless - your "social convenience" part is doing all the work here - but you can't just define away the things you like but the majority doesn't currently accept [1] as "social convenience" wheth…

> You are essentially arguing that the right things should just take hold immediately I... don't think that's at all what I'm saying. Upthread commenter was saying that refusing to hire trans people "kind of sucks for them, but is understandable" in a pretty clear oh-well-what-you-gonna-do-about-it frame. I think that's bad. And the reason it's bad is it's the same logic deployed to serve horrific goals. I don't thin…

"I don't think you're saying that it's OK to refuse to hire trans people either. Are you?"

No, of course not. But there is a difference between whether it is "okay" in some moral sense, and whether society deems it "okay", and whether it's normal/possible/desirable/etc for that to take time to change.

Replace "trans people" with something you hate in your arguments, and you can see that they apply equally well.

"sure, you and your reactionary gender normative compatriots"

Please don't assume you know anything about my view. I was careful not to express a view, but here you label me with one, in a fairly pejorative way.

That is not okay, in any way, shape, or form. If you want to know my view, then ask. You'd apparently be surprised to learn that i have spent lots of time and energy trying to help trans folks.

You really do keep missing the point, and appear very focused on how you feel about this particular thing. Other people feel equally powerful but opposite. You do simply define them as wrong. They do the same thing to you!

Your logic is actually the logic deployed to serve horrific ends, and i'm really not sure why you don't see it.

You claim you are not defining others as wrong, but you are in fact doing it, right here:

"Just don't take it to the point where you're trying to exclude people from your workplaces. Because that's fucking awful."

See here you've defined people who exclude trans people as wrong (again, i happen to agree if you really must know). I presume it is fairly fundamental to your beliefs, based on how hard you argue here.

But take people who believe the complete opposite of you - militantly (i don't care whether it's about trans people or anything else). That logic you just use applies equally well to that horrific end. Do you think these militantly opposite people should be excluded from their workplace? Do they get to think that you should be excluded because they think you are fucking awful? If not, why?

Because your logic applies equally well there - because, as i said, it is the logic you are using that leads to a horrific end.

Most people i talk with about excluding militantly transphobic people say "yes, i'm okay with"

Which I agree with, but not simply because i define the other side as wrong.

Now, as for what will happen, in practice, society will, over time, likely decide it's okay to not hire people who are transphobic, the same way society is okay not hiring all sorts of people that society does not agree with. Because that's what society is - a community and grouping, and a society always defines the acceptability bounds for the group. But changing those bounds takes time, and always takes time.

In the meantime, society is not sure where it stands, and will be okay with lots of things it will not be okay with in the future. That is, again, normal, and IMHO, hard to avoid. Even if it is pretty horrific for those involved. As mentioned, it doesn't seem like we've ever been able to successfully avoid it.

Re: I was laid off in retaliation for anti-discrimination whistleblowing

#177
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are essentially arguing that the right things should just take hold immediately I... don't think that's at all what I'm saying. Upthread commenter was saying that refusing to hire trans people "kind of sucks for them, but is understandable" in a pretty clear oh-well-what-you-gonna-do-about-it frame. I think that's bad. And the reason it's bad is it's the same logic deployed to serve horrific goals. I don't thin…

"I don't think you're saying that it's OK to refuse to hire trans people either. Are you?" No, of course not. But there is a difference between whether it is "okay" in some moral sense, and whether society deems it "okay", and whether it's normal/possible/desirable/etc for that to take time to change. Replace "trans people" with something you hate in your arguments, and you can see that they apply equally well. "sure…

> That is not okay, in any way, shape, or form. If you want to know my view, then ask. You'd apparently be surprised to learn that i have spent lots of time and energy trying to help trans folks.

It was a turn of phrase, and I apologize. The point was to poke fun at the rhetoric.

And now I've read that through about three times... and I genuinely can't see what your point is? You say you don't want trans people fired or excluded, but you're going to the mattresses to point out that someone who feels like like you do is... wrong? No, you don't say I'm wrong.

You're just making a meta point that I should recognize that my personal moral compass isn't the only one in the world? Like I don't already know that? How would you suggest I argue this point? Upthread, you're straight up celebrating society being able to "fight about" these issues. But only in defense of the other side?

Coming back: I still can't understand how you're deploying the abstractions above in defense of refusing to hire someone because they're trans. I mean... OK! You're right. Morality is complicated. But... is this really what you want to be defending? There are times where we need to pick sides, right?

Re: I was laid off in retaliation for anti-discrimination whistleblowing

#178

"[I] also surfaced feedback that had been shared with me by my own engineering teams regarding ways in which Rune Lab’s technology was insufficient for clinical use." "In each instance, I escalated this feedback to the appropriate members of the senior leadership team, and where appropriate, proposed refactors of common pain points. Synthesizing, evaluating, and sharing this feedback is a crucial component of any TPM…

We only have the worker protections we have because at some point people chose to take a stand rather than just change jobs because it was easier.

Re: I was laid off in retaliation for anti-discrimination whistleblowing

#179
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are essentially arguing that the right things should just take hold immediately I... don't think that's at all what I'm saying. Upthread commenter was saying that refusing to hire trans people "kind of sucks for them, but is understandable" in a pretty clear oh-well-what-you-gonna-do-about-it frame. I think that's bad. And the reason it's bad is it's the same logic deployed to serve horrific goals. I don't thin…

"I don't think you're saying that it's OK to refuse to hire trans people either. Are you?" No, of course not. But there is a difference between whether it is "okay" in some moral sense, and whether society deems it "okay", and whether it's normal/possible/desirable/etc for that to take time to change. Replace "trans people" with something you hate in your arguments, and you can see that they apply equally well. "sure…

> Now, as for what will happen, in practice, society will, over time, likely decide it's okay to not hire people who are transphobic, the same way society is okay not hiring all sorts of people that society does not agree with

I hope you're right, but I also worry you're giving "society" too much credit. In many countries, trans people are executed. There are very few where they have the same protections and status that they do in, say, Canada, and there is still a ton of transphobia in Canada (the U.S. is certainly quite far behind Canada in policy)

While it's nice the tech is more progressive with regards to inclusivity than many other male-dominated industries, this thread is living proof that even in a community which has been shaped by the zeitgeist of Silicon Valley (and the accompanying progressive lean of its historically LGBTQ-heavy constituency), there is still tons of transphobia.

Re: I was laid off in retaliation for anti-discrimination whistleblowing

#180
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't think you're saying that it's OK to refuse to hire trans people either. Are you?" No, of course not. But there is a difference between whether it is "okay" in some moral sense, and whether society deems it "okay", and whether it's normal/possible/desirable/etc for that to take time to change. Replace "trans people" with something you hate in your arguments, and you can see that they apply equally well. "sure…

> That is not okay, in any way, shape, or form. If you want to know my view, then ask. You'd apparently be surprised to learn that i have spent lots of time and energy trying to help trans folks. It was a turn of phrase, and I apologize. The point was to poke fun at the rhetoric. And now I've read that through about three times... and I genuinely can't see what your point is? You say you don't want trans people fired…

It read to me like he was just commenting on your frustration that the law and all our norms don't instantaneously proscribe all possible forms of discrimination, that there isn't a plausible generalizable principle of "just don't discriminate", even if it's easy to anticipate that we shouldn't allow discrimination against e.g. trans people.
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