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You can't tell people anything (2004)

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Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#171

Post by anthomtb »

koyote wrote: post #63
zsz wrote: post #51

> I’m totally convinced that a new idea or a new plan or a new technique is never really understood when you just explain it. > People will often think they understand, and they’ll say they understand, but then their actions show that it just ain’t so. Isn't this the very reason that homework assignments exist? When I was in college, it took me two years to realize that I could have easily gotten As and Bs (instead o…

> When I was in college, it took me two years to realize that I could have easily gotten As and Bs (instead of Bs and Cs) in my various math classes, physics, chemistry, etc. had I simply bothered to do my homework properly--or, to put it differently, had I only properly applied the knowledge which I passively acquired by reading the associated textbook sections. I took this realisation to the extreme and decided to…

> completely deprioritise classes in favour of homework and doing the reading in my own time

I had two mathematics teachers in high school that took this approach to class time. They would lecture for 10 minutes then have the class do work in groups on homework assignments for the remaining 45 minutes. Exact times varied based on the complexity of the material, of course. And I do not believe their format was sanctioned by the administration. But it sure helped me retain more of the information.

As an extra bonus, it really helped with procrastination. It was a lot easier to get to work on an already-started homework assignment compared to staring at a blank page and a daunting list of problems.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#172

Post by hinkley »

astrange wrote: post #111
hinkley wrote: post #40

I had a coworker who made a sport of telling people things. Once he'd flipped the bozo bit on someone, he took a certain sardonic delight in predicting outcomes that they would promptly reject... and then face-plant directly into. Sort of like the Oracle in the Matrix, only cynical, or perhaps more like Willy Wonka. "I wouldn't do that, I really wouldn't."

Does he know they had Socrates killed for being annoying?

He was ex military. A few thirty-somethings weren't going to scare him.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#173

Post by bsenftner »

relaxing wrote: post #161
bsenftner wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quest for an understanding of the need for good communication skills in developers, as well as everyone else, has become my personal vocation. I've been working in tech for four decades, and my vantage sees weak and poor communications as the underlying factor of all this chaos, this absurd reliance on extreme tooling, the overly complicated tech stacks, and the industry failure of resorting to "leet testing" to…

Yeah that's an astonishingly terrible idea. "Placing consumers into the video advertising of products with a celebrity commending their purchase" would have made intriguing dystopian fiction 40 years ago. Today it sounds like a bad parody.

Perhaps to you, but to all the fashion fans and all the super hero fans it would be a must have.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#174

Post by BeFlatXIII »

slfnflctd wrote: post #167
_yb2s wrote: post #36

This puts to clear words a nagging sensation I've had my whole life, that I (also) tried to tell other people but couldn't. Talking just doesn't work as well as people think it does. It seems so obvious once you start noticing, but almost nobody notices this. People are either just repeating memes each other basically already know, or else are talking past each other. When I overhear people having a conversation, alm…

> I am drawing out the explanation way more than they expected to be necessary. The social norm is to think or at least act like you understand immediately when you really don't. I have wrestled with this since I was a child. For a long time I felt I was frequently missing information everyone else was picking up on (which was surely true in some cases, but not all)-- it even led to a brief delusion where I became pa…

> Like an arms race of bullshitting. A facade of wisdom and knowledge.

Human-powered GPT.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#175

Post by MichaelZuo »

ivanbakel wrote: post #151
MichaelZuo wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Methods such as reviewing their work, observing their actions without them knowing, testing them in some form, literally sitting behind them, etc..., will quickly reveal someone's true disposition towards whether the 'sky is on fire', regardless of what might be said. At least I've never heard anyone that could convincingly fake such a big difference under focused observation, assuming the verifier is competent. For…

I agree - as I said, you can see the results in the actions of the other party. But those are all techniques beyond communication: none of them allow you to verify, in the moment, whether or not the other person has "understood" you in the sense of agreeing with what you have to say. The idea of verifying after communicating is in line with the original article, and the comment by outworlder. What do you think they f…

> But those are all techniques beyond communication: none of them allow you to verify, in the moment, whether or not the other person has "understood" you in the sense of agreeing with what you have to say.

Huh?

To clarify, in my example of the veteran car mechanic assessing someone's proficiency, there's no set-up required, they can verify it 'in the moment'.

No special or unusual tools or environmental conditions are needed to conduct verification.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#176

Post by SillyUsername »

hinkley wrote: post #40

I had a coworker who made a sport of telling people things. Once he'd flipped the bozo bit on someone, he took a certain sardonic delight in predicting outcomes that they would promptly reject... and then face-plant directly into. Sort of like the Oracle in the Matrix, only cynical, or perhaps more like Willy Wonka. "I wouldn't do that, I really wouldn't."

I'm like this in my areas of expertise.

I guess I'm just an ass for saying I told you so when this happens, but I firmly believe you need to let people make their own mistakes before they learn, both how to solve the problem, and to gain a begrudged respect.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#177

Post by chalst »

smaudet wrote: post #109
koyote wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I was in college, it took me two years to realize that I could have easily gotten As and Bs (instead of Bs and Cs) in my various math classes, physics, chemistry, etc. had I simply bothered to do my homework properly--or, to put it differently, had I only properly applied the knowledge which I passively acquired by reading the associated textbook sections. I took this realisation to the extreme and decided to…

Classroom experience is so rarely useful, the ONLY time you benefit is when either a) you already studied the subject and the professor is good and mentions something tangential/extra credit, or b) the classroom size is small, so when you don't understand something you can say so without fear of class disruption and the teacher can spend more time tailoring their curriculum to their class. Otherwise yes, you are ofte…

I had the luxury of going to Oxford, when colleges gave tutorials to two or three students at a time. For most topics, I figured out what had been covered in the lectures from the tutorial problems, read up that material in the book I was using, and then solved the tutorial problems.

There were a few topics that I attended the lectures, either because the lecturer was very good or because no book was adequate. The subject was mathematics, but I knew people from other fields who approached study in a similar way.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#178

Post by lootsauce »

I always say it is non-trivial to achieve a meeting of the minds. We often act adversarially to new ideas to challenge them as they in turn challenge our conceptions. Often this looks like arguing and many people ain’t got time for that, it can be emotional, you’re not listening, just give it 5 mins, no you’re wrong, etc. This is not a failing of individuals so much as the impedance to aligning two different cognitive patterns. One does not simply walk into a new cognitive state you have to do battle with your own and another’s conceptions and in the face of imperfect communication.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#179

Post by SillyUsername »

nice2meetu wrote: post #112

I like to think of the bike problem. Sit down and draw a picture of a bike from memory in as much detail as you can in 2 minutes. Easy right? But it is surprisingly hard.

Assuming side on...

  T--/-
 O|-/O
I tend to think in abstractions so to me it's a triangle (frame), 2 circles (wheels), a T shape (seat), an inverted L (handlebars), a letter 8/infinity (bike chain)... Maybe I'm just weird :)

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#180

Post by FrontierPsych »

zsz wrote: post #51

> I’m totally convinced that a new idea or a new plan or a new technique is never really understood when you just explain it. > People will often think they understand, and they’ll say they understand, but then their actions show that it just ain’t so. Isn't this the very reason that homework assignments exist? When I was in college, it took me two years to realize that I could have easily gotten As and Bs (instead o…

Yes, 100%.

A friend of mine was going to graduate, and had one required class that she had to take. She had dropped it twice before because she said it was too difficult for her. If she didn't pass, she couldn't take the class again, or maybe for a year, not sure exactly.

Well, at the start of the semester at the first mid-term, she failed the first one. At that point, I decided to step in. I made her read every single chapter, completely, and understand most of it, before going to class, where the teacher went over everything and she could ask the one or two very incisive and important questions that she honestly didn't understand in the book.

I also "made" her do an extra credit paper (meaning I really just put the screws to her to do it, no mercy. For her own good - ie not graduating and failing out with one semester to go.)

As you might expect, she got perfect scores on her next two mid-term tests, and her report she also had an A+.

Reading to understand and working hard at it, you will understand. And reading it before each class, in order to ask the one or two or four honest questions that you have to fill in the honest few things you just can't understand.

And actually, with the internet, for almost all things, you can look up multiple sources on the topic and read them all - because each author has a different perspective and when you see the concept from many different perspectives, you really do understand deeply.

I got pretty much all C's, but then started doing this and then got all A's. Plus I leared memory mnemonics - Tony Buzon - for perfect memory. Learning mnemonics required a lot of work, but so worth it I would make it a required topic to teach starting in 1st grade, and every grade after that. Just like everyone should be required to take probability and statistics classes starting in 7th grade to 12th grade. Just those two.

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