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California cancels salmon fishing season

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Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#171

Post by WalterBright »

myshpa wrote: post #71
BurningFrog wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a classic Tragedy Of The Commons. Establish ownable fishing rights per ocean areas, and regular greed will solve this problem.

We've heard similar arguments in post-soviet countries regarding farming land - private land owners will take better care of the land, will protect the wildlife, won't poison their own land, etc. Privatization didn't help ... small owners rent their land to the big ag, wildlife is still being decimated, land degradation accelerated, and now there are new deserts in central Europe (last week there was a sand storm in…

> wildlife is still being decimated

Wildlife isn't owned by anybody. Contrast this with cows. Cows are in no danger of extinction, despite mass slaughter of them.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#172

Post by CalRobert »

uoaei wrote: post #162
CalRobert wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We moved to the Irish countryside and hearing the dairy cows wailing for their calves that have just been taken away from them is an uexpected meat/dairy deterrent.

I've always been impressed by vegetarians, because of their comfort in the moral convictions that keep cows alive and suffering for their dairy and children, but never dead for their meat (and an end to their suffering).

A lot of them don't seem to realize dairy and veal go hand in hand. Or some are vegetarian for other reasons (health, ecological, religous, etc)

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#173

Post by cinntaile »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #153
dcchambers wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2.7 trillion fish are caught every year, or up to 5 million caught every minute. Bycatch aside, this number absolutely floors me. There is no way this number can sound remotely sustainable to anyone, right? I love seafood, but I know the issues with overfishing so I don't eat it often and when I do, I do my best to only eat sustainably caught or farmed fish...but I feel absolutely hopeless seeing numbers like this.

> There is no way this number can sound remotely sustainable to anyone, right? Why not? How many fish are born every minute?

Overfishing and dwindling fish populations are pretty established facts.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#174

Post by mellavora »

swatcoder wrote: post #154
dcchambers wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2.7 trillion fish are caught every year, or up to 5 million caught every minute. Bycatch aside, this number absolutely floors me. There is no way this number can sound remotely sustainable to anyone, right? I love seafood, but I know the issues with overfishing so I don't eat it often and when I do, I do my best to only eat sustainably caught or farmed fish...but I feel absolutely hopeless seeing numbers like this.

Overfishing is an issue for sure, but the number just speaks to home unfathomably huge the oceans are. Poke around and look up how big wild schools of anchovy can be, or how many krill it takes to feed a whale. And each of those numbers you find are just teensy little blips. The ocean is really big and its teeming with life.

> The ocean is really big and its teeming with life.

The ocean is really big and was teeming with life.

There, fixed it for you

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#175

Post by mellavora »

amrocha wrote: post #114
myshpa wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's ;) > No, animals do not have rights. What about pets? Let's talk about dairy industry ... why don't we switch to dog milk? Nothing wrong with dog's milk. Full of goodness, full of vitamins, full of marrowbone jelly. Lasts longer than any other milk, dog's milk. Why? No bugger'll drink it. Plus of course the advantage of dog's milk is that when it goes off, it tastes exactly the same as when it's fresh. > No, an…

Ok, but it might get long. And again, I'm not looking for an adversarial discussion. 1. Animal Rights Animals don't have rights because rights are a human construct. Absent humans, animal rights don't make any sense. Animals can only have "rights" in their relationship to humans, and humans are the ones enforcing those "rights". Therefore I don't think animal rights as a term makes sense. To me, they're closer to soc…

> the cow has no concept of morality, only survival.

Actually, many non-human animals have been shown to have strong view on fairness .

If we assume evolution is mostly correct, then the assumption that "morality" only originated in humans is rather suspect; it should be a component of every social animal.

Cows are herd animals. Thus very likely to have a sense of morality.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#176

Post by mellavora »

CalRobert wrote: post #39
yesenadam wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me ashamed to be human. Reading stuff like that, and thinking about what we do to cows, sheep, lambs, chickens, etc, it dawned on me a while ago that humans have no right to treat animals like they're just a bunch of cells to be treated however we want, like a serial killer treats their victims. But that animals are fellow beings, a lot like us in many ways. I didn't want pain, or someone to kill me, so I fi…

We moved to the Irish countryside and hearing the dairy cows wailing for their calves that have just been taken away from them is an uexpected meat/dairy deterrent.

I wonder if today's epidemic of depression isn't in part fueled by the consumption of milk from grieving cows.

That distress has to get into the milk; this is one of the pathways of epigenetic regulation -- meaning the distress is heritable, and may impact cross-species.

And it is a completely unneccessary practice. See https://ec.europa.eu/eip/agriculture/en/find-connect/project...

On this farm, calves are kept with cows for 5 months after birth.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#177

Post by midoridensha »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #46
lumost wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this affect plankton levels? Without predation we’d expect biomass to appear elsewhere, right?

Overfishing usually results in jellyfish blooms - if there are no fish to consume the available zooplankton then jellyfish will. There's stacks and stacks of papers written on that phenomenon.

So people just need to start harvesting jellyfish and eating them instead of fish.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#178

Post by gambiting »

illirik wrote: post #158
dcchambers wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2.7 trillion fish are caught every year, or up to 5 million caught every minute. Bycatch aside, this number absolutely floors me. There is no way this number can sound remotely sustainable to anyone, right? I love seafood, but I know the issues with overfishing so I don't eat it often and when I do, I do my best to only eat sustainably caught or farmed fish...but I feel absolutely hopeless seeing numbers like this.

It's not just fish. The sheer number of animals that are slaughtered to produce meat for human consumption is absolutely mind-boggling. In addition to the fish, humans killed 72 billion chickens, 3.3 billion ducks, 1.3 billion pigs, over a half-billion geese, turkeys, rabbits, sheep, and goats (each!), over 300 million cattle, and over 70 million rodents for food in 2019 alone [1]. Animal agriculture overall generate…

>>There is no such thing as sustainable animal agriculture - it is a lie used to greenwash products

Yeah I absolutely don't agree. I don't believe it can be done at scale - but it can be done. Watch a channel like Harry's Farm on youtube - guy basically has cattle on moors where nothing else could possibly grow - they just stay there all year, eat grass, then one day they get slaughtered. There is nothing about farming them this way that's unsustainable.

>>The only sane and ethical response to this devastation is to completely reject the economic exploitation of animals - to adopt a fully vegan philosophy.

I think you might be getting too much of that "greenwashed" propaganda yourself friend.

We should be fighting against factory farming with all our might, and especially the US is a sad place when it comes to animal rights. But going out and saying it can't be done sustainably is a lie peddled by people who either literally can't imagine how it can be done, or who don't want to see it. I believe meat can be sustainably produced, but it should be reflected in its cost - people shouldn't be eating meat 3x times a day because it's so cheap.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#179

Post by belorn »

kortilla wrote: post #156
belorn wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans need to start living in harmony with nature. We need to stop using artificial fertilizers that end up in the ocean and slowly suffocating and starving animals. I like oxygen and so do they. We must also stop spraying literal poison on the land and exterminating the insect population that other animals need to survive. We must stop cooking the planet and especially the oceans, and stop burning forests in order…

> We need to stop using artificial fertilizers 80% of the population will starve to death if we do this. Is that what you want?

As I began in my second paragraph above, people do need to eat something. Right now that means sacrifice the environment if we want to keep everyone alive in the short term.

Long term we could have farming that has zero environmental impact, like vertical farming with fully contained and controlled environment. It would cost huge amount of money and with the current economical system it would be impossible to feed everyone on the planet, but the technology is technically there.

Right now however, a person should to take into account the environmental impact that different food has. Going into a store and buying a avocado will leave the buyer with some blood on their hands. They can try to reduce the amount of blood by making a difference choice depending on how a specific food is produced, but it will be more complex than just looking if it contains meat.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#180

Post by mrpopo »

donkeyd wrote: post #164
wazoox wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And in EU, the French government just announced that it will "strongly oppose" forbidding deep ocean scrubbing nets in "protected areas" (which are therefore totally unprotected). They look like caricature villains from a comic book or something. Bonkers. For history, here's the criminal, senseless moron, shame on him, shame on them all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtfGFt1c5H8

The Dutch experimented with pulse fishing [0]. This had some good benefits for the sea and didn't seem to negatively impact the fishing industry over here much. It was banned again by the EU, according to some due to lobbying on behalf of other countries that were afraid they'd have to start investing in it too. 0: https://www.wur.nl/en/dossiers/file/pulse-fishing.htm

This doesn't look like a significant advance in sustainability, rather in fishing efficency; a "better" sustainability score doesn't mean it's sustainable. In the same way that replacing coal with nat. gas doesn't solve global warming.
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