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Zero energy ready homes are coming

energy.gov

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Re: Zero energy ready homes are coming

#171

Post by gtop3 »

Baeocystin wrote: post #118
paganel wrote: post #89

Crazy how the Americans try to create "zero energy homes" (whatever that means) using basically wood structures. Wood is a very, very bad heat insulator. The best proven heat insulator when it comes to building a home is earth itself, that's why for hundreds to thousands of years dug-out huts have been the norm on several continents, for different cultures/civilisations. Granted, you cannot build a macmansion-like ho…

Almost half of Americans live in an earthquake zone. Wood is a hell of a lot safer than masonry or rammed earth in such conditions.

It's very reasonable to build a masonry structure that is safe in a large earth quake. They are however more likely to suffer major damage during an earthquake. Wood framed houses are less likely to be damaged, and have much cheaper repairs when they are damaged.

Re: Zero energy ready homes are coming

#172

Post by blacksmith_tb »

wolfram74 wrote: post #30
Syonyk wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally, yes. They tend to have a lot of corners (for their "architectural features" checklist), and those are really hard to insulate well. They also tend to be purchased by people who don't care in the slightest about energy efficiency, because if you can buy a $10M home, the difference between $500/mo or $1500/mo in energy costs doesn't matter to you.

Competing element though is they probably have more land to put solar on, so if they don't find it to be aesthetically incompatible, they could probably push through those energy losses.

Sure, and they could shrug off the cost of installing a ground-source heat pump[1] too, which would be too expensive for more modest homes. But they'd again have to give a damn, which I am only semi-optimistic about...

1: https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/5-things-you-should-kno...

Re: Zero energy ready homes are coming

#173

Post by prottog »

xthrown1 wrote: post #147
prottog wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> without subsidies from the inner core Like how the residents of New York City are able to get the food and water it needs all produced within the five boroughs? Or is that a different kind of "subsidy" from the hinterlands.

A subsidy means you pay less for something than you would on the open market. Cities not only pay the market price for all those products the majority of their taxes go out to the hinterlands on top of that.

Cities pay market price for food coming from the hinterlands but at the same time they pay a subsidy to the same hinterlands that grow that same food? Doesn't sound like market price anymore.

It's nonsensical to say that just because the tax receipts of a suburb doesn't pay in full its roads and bridges, its existence is necessarily subsidized by the rest. Does a city pay in full for its share of the US Navy whose protection of global commerce it depends on to survive? Are cities subsidized by the blood of those in the armed forces, who primarily come from the hinterlands?

Re: Zero energy ready homes are coming

#174

Post by rootusrootus »

nebulousthree wrote: post #142
xyst wrote: post #64

I just see this as another subsidy for single family housing developments. The home may be "zero energy ready" or whatever greenwashing term they want to use. But the fact is they are spending that energy in driving from the sticks (in some cases >20 miles away) and back, driving from their home to the grocery store and back, driving to areas of interest (ie, parks, restaurants, doctors appointments). All of this is…

It's a culture problem. Suburb dwellers, at best, are indifferent towards their neighbours.

> Suburb dwellers, at best, are indifferent towards their neighbours.

Huh? Where did you get this nugget of wisdom from? We have great relationships with almost all of the neighbors I can see from my porch. It's called community. I've lived in urban high rises and known fewer neighbors.

Re: Zero energy ready homes are coming

#175

Post by yieldcrv »

johnweldon wrote: post #144
Fauntleroy wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can find a way to convince Americans they don't all need a yard that can easily fit 6 (japanese) houses, we'll be well on our way.

Why do we need to convince someone they don't "need" anything? Each person has the best information about their own situation to decide what they need (or even want - you don't have to _need_ something to have to justify _wanting_ it)

Convince them not to want it

Re: Zero energy ready homes are coming

#176

Post by karmelapple »

johnweldon wrote: post #140
xyst wrote: post #64

I just see this as another subsidy for single family housing developments. The home may be "zero energy ready" or whatever greenwashing term they want to use. But the fact is they are spending that energy in driving from the sticks (in some cases >20 miles away) and back, driving from their home to the grocery store and back, driving to areas of interest (ie, parks, restaurants, doctors appointments). All of this is…

Generally speaking, people will always choose to spend money living as close to their ideal as they can, with the resources they are able to give toward it. The fact that so many people choose to live in suburbs, or the "sticks", suggests that there is something desirable to _them_ about living there. I.e. the same spending power required to live in a house in the suburbs, or rurally, could usually be used to live in…

I disagree that it’s naive. Here is a video talking about why that term is being used: https://youtu.be/7IsMeKl-Sv0

And the Strong Towns write up that has links to more reading that I believe informed that video: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/8/28/the-growth-pon...

Re: Zero energy ready homes are coming

#177

Post by kiba »

swatcoder wrote: post #126
xyst wrote: post #64

I just see this as another subsidy for single family housing developments. The home may be "zero energy ready" or whatever greenwashing term they want to use. But the fact is they are spending that energy in driving from the sticks (in some cases >20 miles away) and back, driving from their home to the grocery store and back, driving to areas of interest (ie, parks, restaurants, doctors appointments). All of this is…

It’s not precedented, wise, or even realistic to expect all of civilization to live in cities surrounded by unspoiled wilderness. Highly efficient low density housing has a place. So does high density housing. Everything you say about improving urban development practices is valid, but doesn’t mean that efforts to improve suburban/exurband/rural development are problematic. They’re all inextricably part of the future…

You can roughly double the volume of a single story building by adding a floor. Taken to extreme, we could make sure a square kilometer is at least two stories tall, but we don't do that. We live mostly a in 2.5d environment.

The skyscrappers that we see in our skylines are not even the majority of what we see. A lot of place will benefit from being 3-4 stories tall.

A lot of space that is developed is hugely wasted, devoted to storing cars, or roads to facilitate car movement. Meanwhile, a human being is very compact in comparison.

Re: Zero energy ready homes are coming

#178

Post by KptMarchewa »

rootusrootus wrote: post #157
Fauntleroy wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can find a way to convince Americans they don't all need a yard that can easily fit 6 (japanese) houses, we'll be well on our way.

Perhaps since the US is something like 26 times larger than Japan while only having less than 3 times the population, we can avoid making comparisons that don't make sense.

It's non sequitur argument since this 26x land does not magically spawn in middle of land starved urban areas. The fact that Wyoming or Idaho exist does not matter there.

Re: Zero energy ready homes are coming

#179

Post by babypuncher »

johnweldon wrote: post #140
xyst wrote: post #64

I just see this as another subsidy for single family housing developments. The home may be "zero energy ready" or whatever greenwashing term they want to use. But the fact is they are spending that energy in driving from the sticks (in some cases >20 miles away) and back, driving from their home to the grocery store and back, driving to areas of interest (ie, parks, restaurants, doctors appointments). All of this is…

Generally speaking, people will always choose to spend money living as close to their ideal as they can, with the resources they are able to give toward it. The fact that so many people choose to live in suburbs, or the "sticks", suggests that there is something desirable to _them_ about living there. I.e. the same spending power required to live in a house in the suburbs, or rurally, could usually be used to live in…

They are able to make that choice because we pretty heavily subsidize it for them. Rural communities receive a disproportionately large amount of federal aid per capita in order to build and maintain the infrastructure that makes that lifestyle possible.

If the individual cost of buying a house "in the sticks" was reflective of that, people might start to think twice.

Re: Zero energy ready homes are coming

#180

Post by dylan604 »

xyst wrote: post #64

I just see this as another subsidy for single family housing developments. The home may be "zero energy ready" or whatever greenwashing term they want to use. But the fact is they are spending that energy in driving from the sticks (in some cases >20 miles away) and back, driving from their home to the grocery store and back, driving to areas of interest (ie, parks, restaurants, doctors appointments). All of this is…

>(in some cases >20 miles away)

what a privileged life style one must have. you realize that there are entire metro areas where you can drive in 20 miles in any direction and still be in urban environment, yeah?

also, thinking 20 miles is just oh so far away is so outside of my world experience that I just don't easily understand your situation of think that it is so far away. clearly, you and I have grown up in totally different situations, and it is interesting to me that one can be so restricted in their movement and consider that normal just as you clearly think anyone traveling > 20 miles is just from Neptune or something.

i'll chalk this up to a nature vs nurture kind of experience

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