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Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

economist.com

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Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#171

Libertarians: this is why we have building codes. We don't need builders cutting corners and harming people years down the road, because profit convinced them that was the right thing to do for their own interests.

Just because some building codes have a good purpose doesn't mean all building codes do. On another forum there was recently a long discussion about the requirement for x number of power outlets in hallways of single family homes. This was added when wall-to-wall carpeting was fashionable and people in homes without outlets in the hallways were using extension cords so their vacuum cleaners could reach all of the car…

Yes, codes do become outdated, but this works both ways.

There is an opposite example to your hallway carpet example: many old bathrooms were not required to have outlets because there were not many mains powered bathing accessories, but now there have been multiple instances of people being electrocuted when running extension cords from other rooms into the bathroom to use.

Really, if we had outlets everywhere that met the best safety standards possible -- we'd prevent all of these issues, in any time. But we don't do this because people want to save money.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#172
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same applies to fire codes. As someone who has been close to almost-tragedies caused by fires, can you give me examples where fire codes are over-zealous? I've had family almost getting killed, even though they did follow the fire codes - the didn't even get a fine or a case against them. If you ask me, the fire codes were not strict enough in that instance.

Kitchen Sinks are required to have an outlet within 2 feet. I redid our kitchen and we ran into that issue. There were outlets on every corner of the island but all slightly farther than 2 feet away. Lucked out and our rough inspector let it slide. Finish inspector called it out but luckily they let it slide because the rough inspector let it slide. Theoretically they could have made me rip it all out. Spooked me eno…

I don't understand your thought process in this situation at all.

Things worked out for you when you followed the rules, and because they worked out, you're not going to follow the rules in the future?

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just cost, but also personal risk. Every injection (or drug) you put into your body carries a risk with it, especially a vaccine. People should get vaccinated, but pretending there is 0 risk associated with it just causes more antivaxxers IMO. And don't tell me that 0.001% chance is the same as 0% chance; for the one in 100k people injured by a vaccine, I can assure you it's not the same...

is there any difference in outcome between those two numbers? like are you gonna do one thing if it's 0% and another thing if it's 0.001%? no.

I think for most people it isn't, but only if you tell them the truth. If you gaslight them and say they are 100% safe, then you will get a much higher percentage of people losing trust and not taking the vaccine anymore.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#174
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same applies to fire codes. As someone who has been close to almost-tragedies caused by fires, can you give me examples where fire codes are over-zealous? I've had family almost getting killed, even though they did follow the fire codes - the didn't even get a fine or a case against them. If you ask me, the fire codes were not strict enough in that instance.

Kitchen Sinks are required to have an outlet within 2 feet. I redid our kitchen and we ran into that issue. There were outlets on every corner of the island but all slightly farther than 2 feet away. Lucked out and our rough inspector let it slide. Finish inspector called it out but luckily they let it slide because the rough inspector let it slide. Theoretically they could have made me rip it all out. Spooked me eno…

That code is a mish-mash of a real safety thing (we don't regulate extension cords at all, so we try to make sure there are outlets everywhere and you don't need them... especially around water, like a sink!) and a general effort to make sure that if you buy a house, you don't figure out later that it's a piece of shit. My favorite examples are minimum length of extra wire in a box, and a neutral required. I don't think those have to do with safety at all, but holy crap am I glad they exist, as someone who didn't build their own house, or have my inspector take the covers off every box before we bought our current house.

Now, when you sell your house, is the next person gonna be a bit miffed that there are no outlets in the kitchen anywhere near the sink? What about when they go to install a smart outlet and there's no neutral, and 1cm of hot wire to work with? That's gonna suck too, but you didn't permit anything and went off your gut so... fuck them I guess?

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#175
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. But the price of those combined should still be nearly an order of magnitude cheaper than $20k. $20k is "gut and rewire everything in an expensive metro area" kind of money.

There's no way you're getting a new box, meter, and service wire for $2k anywhere in the US. Certainly not California. Plus, lots of places require these to be buried. So you've got trenching costs and that's a pain too. $20k is definitely within the ballpark of a cost.

Did mine last year for $1200... and I had new grounds installed for that price too. But yes, it was above ground.

But my point is, if someone need to do all of these things, it's for a reason. And these tasks aren't "upgrade a circuit", they're, "upgrade my home's electrical service"

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#176
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same applies to fire codes. As someone who has been close to almost-tragedies caused by fires, can you give me examples where fire codes are over-zealous? I've had family almost getting killed, even though they did follow the fire codes - the didn't even get a fine or a case against them. If you ask me, the fire codes were not strict enough in that instance.

Kitchen Sinks are required to have an outlet within 2 feet. I redid our kitchen and we ran into that issue. There were outlets on every corner of the island but all slightly farther than 2 feet away. Lucked out and our rough inspector let it slide. Finish inspector called it out but luckily they let it slide because the rough inspector let it slide. Theoretically they could have made me rip it all out. Spooked me eno…

Given modern information presentation technology, every single limit like that in the codes should be linked to a document detailing why the limit is what it is, with a short summary and preferably videos of what happens when the limit is and is not adhered to.

I don’t doubt there are great reasons for most of the rules, and the best way to get compliance is to explain why they’re there. And some may be overzealous indeed and then they would hopefully be adjusted.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#177
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same applies to fire codes. As someone who has been close to almost-tragedies caused by fires, can you give me examples where fire codes are over-zealous? I've had family almost getting killed, even though they did follow the fire codes - the didn't even get a fine or a case against them. If you ask me, the fire codes were not strict enough in that instance.

Kitchen Sinks are required to have an outlet within 2 feet. I redid our kitchen and we ran into that issue. There were outlets on every corner of the island but all slightly farther than 2 feet away. Lucked out and our rough inspector let it slide. Finish inspector called it out but luckily they let it slide because the rough inspector let it slide. Theoretically they could have made me rip it all out. Spooked me eno…

How is that a bad safety measure? if not close enough, people will use extension cords, which will be significantly more dangerous than proper outlets.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#178
post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

> it's so frustrating I feel the same way developing software - the only thing that ever matters, and has ever mattered (at least since I started developing software in 1992) is "meeting the date". Whatever corners can be cut to make the date are cut, and then the thing breaks in fairly predictable ways because corners were cut. It's maddeningly infuriating and I'm not even dealing with people's lives here. I can't e…

For three years I got the team to still do a drill release cycle around the holidays because we were running into trouble hunting down regressions when we went two or three weeks. People start to forget things, especially around holidays.

This year they decided to skip a bunch. We had one almost disaster that I caught, so of course we’re going to forget why we did this stuff in the first place. Until the next time it blows up.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. But the price of those combined should still be nearly an order of magnitude cheaper than $20k. $20k is "gut and rewire everything in an expensive metro area" kind of money.

Haha absolutely not. PG&E says that 5% of projects in California cost over $20k just for trenching in new underground service feeder. That doesn't even begin to mention the new main panel and all the branch wiring behind it. If you need to upgrade your panel it can easily cost $100k.

My point is that trenching your yard up because your electrical system legitimately can't handle the load is not "use of the permitting process to push high-cost climate goals on home owners". The necessity of a higher gauge service line is a legitimate safety regulation.

If it costs someone $100k to replace their service panel, I suppose they can just borrow that out of their budget for yacht fuel for the month. Because they clearly have a property much different than average. https://www.bobvila.com/articles/cost-to-replace-electrical-...

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same applies to fire codes. As someone who has been close to almost-tragedies caused by fires, can you give me examples where fire codes are over-zealous? I've had family almost getting killed, even though they did follow the fire codes - the didn't even get a fine or a case against them. If you ask me, the fire codes were not strict enough in that instance.

> can you give me examples where fire codes are over-zealous? There's a small movement to eradicate the requirement for midrise buildings to have 2 stairways. Advocates point to European regulations and claim that a single stairway is just as safe as 2. Double stairways, they say, makes construction more expensive and results in awkward, undesirable apartment layouts. https://slate.com/business/2021/12/staircases-flo…

I remember a commentator in a previous thread mentioned something like...

'In NY "Fire-Proof" buildings can be built like that', when they're built out of materials that do not burn and in ways where the fire cannot spread. Effectively the safer place in a fire, in theory, would be to shelter in place as it cannot spread.

I'm all for using as many non-burning materials as possible in building construction.

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