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Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video
171–180 of 226 posts
Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video
#172Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've been programming with Clojure since 2010 and using it in production almost as long and I hardly ever care about the internal types so I'm really curious as to how you went down that "rabbit hole"? What sort of problems were you solving that necessitated delving into the implementation details behind the abstractions? I've only needed to dig into that occasionally for a handful of specific situations (for example…
What is the idea behind immutable variant of a ResultSet? Since it maintains a database cursor, does it make sense to have it immutable? > A ResultSet object maintains a cursor pointing to its current row of data. Initially the cursor is positioned before the first row [0] 0 - https://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/sql/ResultSet...
If you're a Clojure developer and you're using the next.jdbc library you don't need to ask that question :)
Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video
#173I have the feeling that after Nubank bought Cognitech, Clojure has gone to stagnation. I mean, i feel that promoting and improving Clojure is no longer a priority. And another think that stinks me everytime Cognitech talks about Clojure they have to bring to the table Datomic. They tried to push Datomic on my company long time ago when they do some consultancy job at my company. You can skip all the talk, because is…
I thought you might be trolling. But then when I looked at the Clojure repo on Github https://github.com/clojure/clojure the last commit was 2 months back. There is some merit in your arguments.
Clojure evolves slowly and deliberately -- it gets about one release a year (with various prereleases) so "2 months" between commits isn't a big deal. I consider it a "feature" because it means Clojure is extremely stable -- which is great for us at work given that we've used it in production for a dozen years at this point and have been able to run alpha builds in production safely during nearly all of that time.
Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video
#174The ultimate failing of Clojure as a tool is its inefficiency measured in $ per feature.
The language is not very approachable for junior programmers. You can grab a Python programmer and graft them on a Java or TS project and the same week they will deliver features and bugfixes. Reading other's people code in Clojure is much harder especially when coming from imperative world. The language is terse. The documentation is terse and lacks examples. Library documentation is insufficient or non-existent. You have to read other people's code. It is a really demanding activity aggravated by lack of static typing. You cannot just hover over a map in your IDE and see its structure. The value may have come through several transformations that add, transform and remove fields. To understand what arguments a function expects you have to decipher destructuring bindings which in real code can be ingenious, i.e. unreadable. And hold on to your butts when a clever teammate invents a flow of control macro and uses it throughout.
These and other reasons make the pool of candidates small, candidates "over-qualified" and expensive. If your expert quits, your whole endeavor is screwed.
I helped to rewrite a Clojure project that stalled due to lack of affordable talent. It's been chugging along since then at a considerable pace. The new language is very popular and much less affected by the mentioned problems.
There is a mention of Penpot in this thread. Mark my words, when it comes a time to scale, they will rewrite the whole thing in a popular statically typed language.
Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video
#175Earlier quoted context omitted.
Java has more build tools then Clojure, so thus is more “more fragmented” apparently. I replied “wat” as a slang version of “what” and a short version of “what do you mean” because that’s the only reasonable reply to “spec seems kind of weird and not well thought out either”. I’m asking OP to qualify there statement with something that could even start to be a conversation about various tradeoffs. But really, i wish…
> Java has more build tools then Clojure First of all, than*, not then. Second... no, it doesn't. Gradle and Maven are the standards, and they both use the very well documented, incredibly successful, Maven Central repository. They are just two different implementations using the same, reliable, battle proven approach to dependencies. You need a library? Add it to your build file, with its version, and you're done. A…
Well with that logic it's the same for clojure, Lein and deps.edn they both use the very well documented, incredibly successful, Maven Central repository. They are just two different implementations using the same, reliable, battle proven approach to dependencies. You need a library? Add it to your build file, with its version, and you're done.
Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video
#176Earlier quoted context omitted.
What is the idea behind immutable variant of a ResultSet? Since it maintains a database cursor, does it make sense to have it immutable? > A ResultSet object maintains a cursor pointing to its current row of data. Initially the cursor is positioned before the first row [0] 0 - https://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/sql/ResultSet...
If you're a Clojure developer and you're using the next.jdbc library you don't need to ask that question :)
Obviously, I'm not :)
Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video
#177Nice to see, but I'm still sad Clojure is a hosted JVM language. I find it unwieldy for a lot of things where Go, Python and Chicken Scheme shine, and wish someone got ClojureScript to run natively in things like Bun or Deno so I could have one fast, small runtime.
Check out Babashka!
It’s nice, but hardly what I need.
Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is actually a great choice for unopinionated server-side web development. Frontend development is simply awesome in ClojureScript. Give me Reagent + Shadow CLJS over plain React (or React Native) any day.
For you and anyone else with experience, is that the most common/battle-tested cljs stack? What about servers-side, any equivalent Django or FastAPI?
I recently have been building a internal web app for managing customers and am super happy with shadow-cljs (develop/build) + reagent (view) + re-frame (state/events) + garden (css).
I especially like how easy shadow-cljs makes it to utilize both clojars and npm pacakges. I have been using JS/TS for a long time and feel like any webdev without npm packages would not be worth my time, especially for projects at work.
Re-frame has a very robust api for dealing with events, side effects, and state. Once I got used to the concepts in the documentation, very good docs but a little goofy, It has quickly become the most efficient and fun tool I have ever used to prototype complex frontend interfaces :)
Glad to be using cljs at work, but I'm not sure I would use this stack for non-internal tooling though.
Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video
#179I have the feeling that after Nubank bought Cognitech, Clojure has gone to stagnation. I mean, i feel that promoting and improving Clojure is no longer a priority. And another think that stinks me everytime Cognitech talks about Clojure they have to bring to the table Datomic. They tried to push Datomic on my company long time ago when they do some consultancy job at my company. You can skip all the talk, because is…
All the things you are mentioning would be nice to haves but frankly nothing prevents us to use these today already, either directly or via a bit of wrapping.
Communication "style" and slow pace is frustrating sometimes but that's a small price to pay for all the positive facets of the language/community. I used to be more critical of these but I don't care anymore, the community is wonderful, the language is very usable and thriving, that's what matters ultimately.
About Datomic, I still don't get why there's no push to open-source the on-prem version, especially since nubank acquisition. I dug onto the internals a few times, contributed to some of the alternatives, read/viewed pretty much everything about it and used it for fun in toy projects, and that thing is just so versatile it makes me angry it's not more accessible and as a result not more popular. It has an incredible untapped potential. Every conj I am holding my breath hoping for a "one more thing" announcement where they'd do just that. The "alternatives" do things either quite differently on too many aspects or lack traction.
Re: Clojure Turns 15 panel discussion video
#180Earlier quoted context omitted.
For you and anyone else with experience, is that the most common/battle-tested cljs stack? What about servers-side, any equivalent Django or FastAPI?
I recently have been building a internal web app for managing customers and am super happy with shadow-cljs (develop/build) + reagent (view) + re-frame (state/events) + garden (css). I especially like how easy shadow-cljs makes it to utilize both clojars and npm pacakges. I have been using JS/TS for a long time and feel like any webdev without npm packages would not be worth my time, especially for projects at work.…
Nice to hear a current user! The last part is a bit scary, what would push you against using it for external facing products?