International Security and Estonia 2023 • Hacker News Board

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#171

Post by blub » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 2:13 PM UTC

jnsaff2 wrote: post #141

consumer451 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does "the left" give them a pass exactly? Until recently, both Dems and Reps were happy to fund and expand NATO, which is basically and anti-russian expansion org. Now Republicans seem to have an issue with that though. I just don't understand what you mean by "Russia has gotten a pass?"

Chomsky, Greenwald and the lot.

Then please post direct quotes by Chomsky and prove it for everyone. The guy always gets defamed and everyone likes to put words into his mouth.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#172

Post by aa-jv » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 2:13 PM UTC

redbar0n wrote: post #169

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #162

This is realpolitik, so there isn't any morality beyond expansion and acquisition. Can we stop pretending these are anything other than resource wars, combined with an excuse to throw money at the defence industries? Russia looked at US actions in Iraq etc and apparently had an irrational attack of imperial atrocity envy, blended with greed over the mineral-rich areas of Eastern Ukraine. Neither empire is wholesome a…

> militarised colonialism, while the US is fairly competent at it. Are they, actually? Vietnam, Afghanistan etc..

We must never forget that the American people murdered 5% of Iraqs' population on the basis of utter lies and have not faced justice for this atrocious abuse.

The moral authority that Americans claim, to justify their nations' heinous crimes against humanity, simply doesn't exist. Americans AND Russians ought to be shunned for their nations' war crimes.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#173

Post by twixfel » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 2:13 PM UTC

engineer_22 wrote: post #8

twixfel wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what happened in WW2. Nobody was willing to negotiate with Hitler because it was apparent that he was utterly untrustworthy, as evidenced by his repeated aggressions through the 30s before WW2 finally broke out. It's the same situation here. Nobody can possibly trust Putin. He's utterly untrustworthy and any treaty would presumably just be breathing space and time for Russia to continue building up its forces…

The person you replied to is saying that USA/NATO is untrustworthy, which I think is different from what you are saying.

Oh well anyone who argues USA and NATO more untrustworthy than Russia is not a remotely serious person.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#174

Post by somethingreen » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 2:14 PM UTC

dmpk2k wrote: post #66

The_Colonel wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this war is entirely about NATO No, this is almost not at all about NATO. This is about Ukraine drifting from Russian sphere of influence to the western sphere of influence. Russia would not allow Ukraine to join EU either, even if it promised to never enter NATO. In short, this is about making Ukraine another Belarus.

You're not wrong, because that is true too, but it is NATO that scares Russia. Given Russia's long history of bloody invasions, I don't think this is something Americans can at all relate to. The American Civil War is small potatoes compared to some of the things that Russians (and other continental countries) have been through. It makes for a very paranoid country.

The amount of effort you people put into not hearing what russians have on multiple occasions in plainest of words claimed to be the goal of the war is honestly mind boggling.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#175

Post by pelasaco » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 2:15 PM UTC

weberer wrote: post #159

sushzbdbehsh wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the Soviets liberated those colonised under the tsarists

You call this liberated? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

as they are liberating Ukraine right now from Nazis.. right.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#176

Post by neoromantique » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 2:16 PM UTC

icegreentea2 wrote: post #168

HatchedLake721 wrote: post #122

I highly encourage people to watch “How the United States created Vladimir Putin” that was presented in Yale University by Vladimir Pozner. It gives another perspective that’s often ignored how US and European foreign policy has played part in shaping what Russia is today. https://youtu.be/8X7Ng75e5gQ

I think it's important to acknowledge that this perspective forms a significant part of Russian internal justification for it's action. Significantly, this allows Russia to claim to be a victim in pretty much all interactions with the west. I don't think Russia should have been able to dictate the terms of NATO enlargement, but I do think the way that we enlarged NATO, combined with the lackluster way that the west a…

The biggest driving force behind NATO enlargement was always Russia. Who knew that if you threaten countries with war they will want to join a defensive alliance.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#177

Post by blub » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 2:16 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #162

This is realpolitik, so there isn't any morality beyond expansion and acquisition. Can we stop pretending these are anything other than resource wars, combined with an excuse to throw money at the defence industries? Russia looked at US actions in Iraq etc and apparently had an irrational attack of imperial atrocity envy, blended with greed over the mineral-rich areas of Eastern Ukraine. Neither empire is wholesome a…

Did the US ever present any proof of Russia manipulating elections or co-opting any politicians?

After Trump was cleared, I’ve started thinking that the US is just going through another Red Scare.

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#178

Post by sushzbdbehsh » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 2:16 PM UTC

weberer wrote: post #159

sushzbdbehsh wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the Soviets liberated those colonised under the tsarists

You call this liberated? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

because a famine has never occured before in the history of civilisation

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#179

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 2:18 PM UTC

neoromantique wrote: post #176

icegreentea2 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's important to acknowledge that this perspective forms a significant part of Russian internal justification for it's action. Significantly, this allows Russia to claim to be a victim in pretty much all interactions with the west. I don't think Russia should have been able to dictate the terms of NATO enlargement, but I do think the way that we enlarged NATO, combined with the lackluster way that the west a…

The biggest driving force behind NATO enlargement was always Russia. Who knew that if you threaten countries with war they will want to join a defensive alliance.

[deleted]

Re: International Security and Estonia 2023

#180

Post by weberer » Wed, Feb 08, 2023, 2:23 PM UTC

sushzbdbehsh wrote: post #178

weberer wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You call this liberated? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

because a famine has never occured before in the history of civilisation

>Since 2006, the Holodomor has been recognized by the European Parliament,[4][32] Ukraine[33] alongside 22 countries, as a genocide against the Ukrainian people carried out by the Soviet regime.[34]