Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Effective altruism has a sexual harassment problem, women say

time.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 417 posts

Re: Effective altruism has a sexual harassment problem, women say

#171

Post by HWR_14 »

scarmig wrote: post #109
teraflop wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm reminded of a fascinating series of Reddit threads, starting back in 2009, from somebody who convinced himself he "could handle anything once" and decided to try heroin, only to rapidly spiral out of control: https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/wef6...

The issue with Reddit is that the story is as likely as not to be fake. Particularly, here, I don't think people are at risk of serious withdrawal after only two weeks of heroin use. Though heroin use is obviously one of the dumbest things anyone can do.

I'm surprised at your statement. In response to a thread about how intelligent people erroneously think their intelligence protects them from addiction, and the story of one person getting addicted, your response is "that couldn't happen to us".

Re: Effective altruism has a sexual harassment problem, women say

#172

Post by gruez »

dkqmduems wrote: post #153
gruez wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the same problem as before. Outside of maybe fundamentalist religious people who think their religious text is the final word on everything, everybody agrees that "science" is the best way of finding out the truth. The trouble is that they disagree on what counts as science (ie. which scientists/institutions/studies to trust). When the disagreement is at that level, casually invoking "science" misses the point…

Science doesn't care who does the science. It just takes time.

That might be true, but it's a non-sequitur because this thread is talking about the epistemic practices of a particular group. Whether "science" (the institution, method, or humanity in general) will eventually arrive at the truth is irrelevant.

Re: Effective altruism has a sexual harassment problem, women say

#173

Post by OkayPhysicist »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #61
jfengel wrote: post #12

The worst thing about being smart is how easy it is to talk yourself into believing just about anything. After all, you make really good arguments. EA appeals to exactly that kind of really-smart-person who is perfectly capable of convincing themselves that they're always right about everything. And from there, you can justify all kinds of terrible things. Once that happens, it can easily spiral out from there. Peopl…

> EA appeals to exactly that kind of really-smart-person who is perfectly capable of convincing themselves that they're always right about everything. And from there, you can justify all kinds of terrible things. I came to the same conclusion after a group of my friends got involved with the local rationalist and EA community, though for a different reason: Their drug habits. They believed themselves to have a better…

I can't imagine what benefits they were looking for in opioid use/abuse. Like, most drugs have a very distinct use, ranging from "directly beneficial" like using stimulants to increase productivity, to "socially useful" like using alcohol or MDMA as a social lubricant. Opiates don't really fall into any of those boxes. They're not mechanistically useful: If you want euphoria, there are better drugs like MDMA or ketamine. If you want to prematurely end your stimulant rush, booze, GHB, or ketamine will do that. Their primary use is as a coping mechanism, because they make you feel generically good regardless of your actual situation. And they're not really socially useful either, because unlike, say, cocaine, the overlap between "valuable people to have in my social network" and "people who shoot heroin" is practically non-existent.

I say this as someone who is very drug positive: Stay away from opiates, except for treating extreme, acute, physical pain.

Re: Effective altruism has a sexual harassment problem, women say

#174

Post by gnramires »

jfengel wrote: post #12

The worst thing about being smart is how easy it is to talk yourself into believing just about anything. After all, you make really good arguments. EA appeals to exactly that kind of really-smart-person who is perfectly capable of convincing themselves that they're always right about everything. And from there, you can justify all kinds of terrible things. Once that happens, it can easily spiral out from there. Peopl…

I am an EA (in the sense that I believe in the importance of some general principles of the movement, like trying to do the most good, and use data when available -- I don't participate in any organization directly).

What I think is the most promising feature of EA is openness to criticism and trying to improve the movement itself. I think SBF was a wake up call and many people in the movement should take note that this isn't how we get to a better future or do the most good (although I think his tactics also were not really EA canon, if there is one, and I don't know if people knew there could be outright fraud -- disclaimer, I don't know the details of SBF's case). That case highlighted the importance of following common sense ethics, honesty and so on.

I also think it's a very common issue for smart people to 'get over their heads' (is that a valid expression?), which I wrote about here: https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/yww9g6/be_s...

It's certainly dangerous to use reasoning to justify whatever you would like to be true. I believe this is addressed in Julia's book 'The Scout Mindset' (haven't read it, only a few reviews!), and it's actually one of the main points of the book (with several examples of that) -- a.k.a. motivated reasoning, arrogance, etc.. We can't be perfect, but we can learn from our mistakes and be aware of those dangers.

I hope the EA community will have a sincere look at those issues and address whatever needs to be addressed. I myself will continue to be an EA possibly forever, because the root ideas are very sound. I want to help people, and I want to learn how to best help others. You can't make me not want to help others effectively ;)

Re: Effective altruism has a sexual harassment problem, women say

#175

Post by JohnFen »

HWR_14 wrote: post #53
JohnFen wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Effective Altruism is just a modern iteration of a thing that's been around for a very long time. The fundamental idea is sound. However, in practice, it all-too-easily devolves into something really terrible. Especially once people start down the path of thinking the needs of today aren't as important as the needs of a hypothetical future population. Personally, I started "tithing" when my first business was a succe…

> I never give to any group that asks me for money. I get how this would keep you personally from being annoyed, but it seems to incentivize in worse outcomes. "Let's collect all the money we can, we never know if we'll get more. Let's grow that reserve" vs. "In a bad month we can get our usual donors/JohnFen to give us his annual donation a little early".

Perhaps, although I haven't seen that. But I also have to deal with the limits of what I can tolerate. That rule make it possible for me to give money. Without it, I wouldn't. I experienced what it was like without that protection, and it's beyond what I could put up with.

Re: Effective altruism has a sexual harassment problem, women say

#177

Post by JohnFen »

namaria wrote: post #145
JohnFen wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Effective Altruism is just a modern iteration of a thing that's been around for a very long time. The fundamental idea is sound. However, in practice, it all-too-easily devolves into something really terrible. Especially once people start down the path of thinking the needs of today aren't as important as the needs of a hypothetical future population. Personally, I started "tithing" when my first business was a succe…

A 'sound idea' that devolves into terrible things whenever applied is not a sound idea.

That's a very good point. You (and the other commenters making the same point) have convinced me. I should find a better way of phrasing.

Re: Effective altruism has a sexual harassment problem, women say

#178

Post by gruez »

strken wrote: post #151
gruez wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but how does this translate into actionable advice? Nobody sets out to intentionally deceive themselves. Telling people that "we should not deceive ourselves" is basically as helpful as "don't be wrong".

How about "don't go against conventional wisdom unless you have a good reason; the more conventional the wisdom, the better the reason needs to be"? Possibly combined with "be humble and give subject matter experts some credit, an hour on Google Scholar doesn't mean you've learned everything". If the conventional wisdom is "don't order research chemicals from a lab in China then self-inject them", then maybe a plan t…

> How about "don't go against conventional wisdom unless you have a good reason; the more conventional the wisdom, the better the reason needs to be"? Possibly combined with "be humble and give subject matter experts some credit,

I have a feeling that this is basically the generic talking point to use when your opponent is more radical than you. The opposite would be you accusing your opponent as luddites or whatever because they're too bought into "conventional wisdom". Neither are actually helpful epistemically because the line for "good reason" is entirely arbitrary, and is easily colored by your beliefs.

>an hour on Google Scholar doesn't mean you've learned everything".

>If the conventional wisdom is "don't order research chemicals from a lab in China then self-inject them", then maybe a plan to get a peptide lab to manufacture cheap Semaglutide is dangerous, even if you can't explain exactly why it's dangerous (in this case it's probably pretty obvious).

I think you're painting effective altruism with too broad a brush and giving them too little credit. I'm very skeptical that the typical effective altruist is ordering semaglutide from china or that the typical EA analysis on x-risk is based on "an hour on Google Scholar".

>If, on the other hand, the conventional wisdom is "eat 6 - 11 servings of grain and 3 - 5 servings of vegetables a day", but many nutritionists are recommending less grain and there's new research out saying that much higher vegetable intake is good, maybe a plan to eat more vegetables and less bread is good.

Hold on, all it takes to turn over "conventional wisdom" on nutrition is "many nutritionists" and "new research"? Does some well researched books like "The Precipice" or "What We Owe the Future" suffice here? I'm sure that among all the effective altruists out there, you can find among them "many" to support their claim?

Re: Effective altruism has a sexual harassment problem, women say

#179

Post by TimPC »

kiba wrote: post #80
tablespoon wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Effective Altruism is just a modern iteration of a thing that's been around for a very long time. Which you think is what, exactly? I'm under the impression that thing is warmed-over utilitarianism. > The fundamental idea is sound. I do not believe utilitarianism is sound, because its logic can be easily used to justify some obviously horrible things. However the framework appeals very strongly to "rationalist" typ…

I do not believe utilitarianism is sound, because its logic can be easily used to justify some obviously horrible things. However the framework appeals very strongly to "rationalist" type people. If it sounds horrible, then it's probably is? The logical chain of hurting a human leading to helping two human doesn't sound like something that is moral or dependable. Giving to charities that focus on the most severe and…

Every ethical theory is a mess of contradictions but throwing ethics out entirely isn’t the right answer. As for hurting someone to help others, sometimes someone needs to kill someone like Hitler for the greater good.

Re: Effective altruism has a sexual harassment problem, women say

#180

Post by acc_297 »

theragra wrote: post #15

If there are less cases of abuse than among generic populace, it is weird to blame the movement. From the article, it is hard to understand that EA is somehow worse than most of the USA. Also, arguments for polyamory are just that, arguments. You certainly can press someone into it, but from the article, the impression that it is more like persuasion. Regarding cult dynamics - any tight knit community feels like this…

Yeah but the woman interviewed wasn’t saying men in Sam Francisco kept asking her to be in their polycule she said men in EA groups kept asking her to be in their polycule

I mean nobody has ever asked me to be in their polycule or anyone else I know so multiple times per year from people in these EA discussion groups is statistically significant and is pretty creepy

Post reply on HN