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Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

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Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust me I try....but being a nerd and a racial minority it is hard to keep a straight mind when nine out of ten women look the other way when you try to approach them to start a conversation. I dont think you have been in a situation where "Can I buy you a drink" is replied with a "you're ugly ...go away".

I don't know you, so I can only make assumptions and extrapolations from what you've revealed here, but it sounds to me like you're crossing up "let's have a conversation" and "let me buy you a drink so we can go play some horizontal mambo." Now it's totally possible that you just want to chat, but "can I buy you a drink" is often interpreted as the latter. As lots of us on HN trend towards the geekier side of life,…

Thanks for the kind words man!...My situation is actually not as hopeless as I am leading people to believe here.

The point I was trying to make was that a bunch of negative experiences with women when you are young leaves very deep scars and these scars manifest themselves as unconscious biases so much that whenever you see a beautiful woman (who will most probably reject you if you tried!) you are automatically biased against her.My brain does this to me so often even though I think I am logical than most other people.

Now I will make another point that is also controversial.(someone needs to say these things!)

See when you grow your skills interacting with women a point comes when the things you cant change matter much more than the things you can, so much that the situation seems pretty helpless.

So at that point even if I bought really expensive clothes and bought myself a mercedes or say became a really smooth talker, how women respond to me would only marginally improve as compared to the non-possible changes such as changing my race to become white...changing my height to become six feet tall etc.

So no matter what I do a six feet tall white guy or a good looking muscular black guy will always have significantly higher odds of attracting a given woman over me.

The more you approach the limit the more you begin to see this brutal truth of the dating world.The things that matter most are things you are born with and this sometimes causes you develop significantly negative feelings towards women as a whole.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#172

This footnote drew my interest: Although female programmers are rare now, that wasn't the case in the 70's. That shift is another argument against the natural balance hypothesis. I am too young to know, but is this the experience of others as well? Again, this is based purely on anecdotal experience, but I wonder if women programmers tend to concentrate into particular industries (for whatever reason). My wife was a…

When computer programming first became a thing mostly women had been taught to type. Men would dictate, women would type things up. Think Mad Men.

It was assumed that programming would be basically the same thing. Male mathematicians would write up algorithms and women would type them up. If you read math papers that relied on computer calculation from the 50's and 60's you'll often see women's names in the acknowledgments for having programmed the algorithms.

As it became clear that it was a more involved job, men began moving into the field. Someone else in these comments listed the books that describe the process.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#173
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about comments like "Women getting their panties in a bunch about something as minor as that is the reason they aren't taken seriously in the workplace (to the extent they aren't, I mean)"? Not even so much the message as the way it was said.

That's like one guy on this whole thread. Everyone else would be more than happy to see you in an interview. We all would. We're just not seeing you gals come in. We've got quite a few female project managers and business devs at my company, but no programmers.

(The other answers to the first question are better and I agree with them.)

It is possible (I don't actually know in your case) that there are other factors that make women not want to apply to your company. For example, right now (and in the US) women are more likely than men (for this argument it doesn't matter whether it is cultural or innate) to seek companies that reward people (or at least don't punish people) for wanting a balanced between work and home. A company's career website (or benefits website) can turn off potential applicants if it looks like that balance is not respected. That is particularly true in software because there are software companies that do both.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#174
post #94
post #57

It's fun to take apart the logic, rhetoric, and nitpick on every word of this post. We could argue the premise all day long -- and 5 years from now there will be fewer women, minorities, etc, than there are now. Instead I prefer to take constructive action to change this, without worrying if (1) it is natural or unnatural or (2) it would be better. I accept that the current state is unnatural and a more balanced popu…

I agree with you. Not sure about the "unnatural" qualifier though. That presumes an active agent present. What can be done. I think that's difficult. It has to be something pervasive, insidious in the culture. Via TV, internet, radio, entertainment, education, propagated by not only peers but all via all media. Everywhere. There needs to cease the archetyping of human roles. Something on that scale could happen, but…

What I am doing is trying to bring up the conversation with as many people as I can -- saying I think it's worth solving and asking for ideas. We need more software developers, and this is an untapped pool. If we increase it a little, we'll have a lot more programmers.

I have also noticed behaviors that work to systematically lower participation by women, and I have worked to reverse them. For example -- noting that invitations to speak at a tech conference included no women, even though there were many qualified choices (I gave the conference organizers a list). I think the issue was that we invite who we know -- we need to break out of that -- our networks are probably overwhelmingly male.

I suggest more discussion (not here -- everywhere) -- but focused on ideas to increase the number of women in programming -- not meta-discussions. Try to notice when the ratio is bad and comment on it -- insist on something being done. And --- if you notice behaviors that work against changing the ratio -- do something about it.

And, I don't think it's very constructive to keep meta-arguing about it. If you want to, go ahead, but it's starting to sound a little silly. Almost all of these arguments were used to stop women from becoming lawyers 100 years ago. When, instead, we started working to include women -- their numbers grew to half the profession. 100 years from now, many of these arguments will seem outdated, especially the ones arguing natural aptitude.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know you, so I can only make assumptions and extrapolations from what you've revealed here, but it sounds to me like you're crossing up "let's have a conversation" and "let me buy you a drink so we can go play some horizontal mambo." Now it's totally possible that you just want to chat, but "can I buy you a drink" is often interpreted as the latter. As lots of us on HN trend towards the geekier side of life,…

Thanks for the kind words man!...My situation is actually not as hopeless as I am leading people to believe here. The point I was trying to make was that a bunch of negative experiences with women when you are young leaves very deep scars and these scars manifest themselves as unconscious biases so much that whenever you see a beautiful woman (who will most probably reject you if you tried!) you are automatically bia…

> The things that matter most are things you are born with and this sometimes causes you develop significantly negative feelings towards women as a whole.

Wrong. You're suffering from confirmation bias.

Guys obsess about money and looks to prove their worth to females, but most of that shit doesn't matter, actually. (It's held against you if you're severely deficient, of course.)

What does? A strong sense of self-identity, confidence, the ability to be both a risk-taker and a stable provider, and, more generally, being an interesting person. These are much harder to work on, so you don't hear as much talk about them. You need to be able to enjoy your life without a girlfriend. You need to have something you love to talk about, and, preferably something you can be good at.

Suck up your pride, ask for help, and start working toward taking responsibility for more of your life.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know you, so I can only make assumptions and extrapolations from what you've revealed here, but it sounds to me like you're crossing up "let's have a conversation" and "let me buy you a drink so we can go play some horizontal mambo." Now it's totally possible that you just want to chat, but "can I buy you a drink" is often interpreted as the latter. As lots of us on HN trend towards the geekier side of life,…

Thanks for the kind words man!...My situation is actually not as hopeless as I am leading people to believe here. The point I was trying to make was that a bunch of negative experiences with women when you are young leaves very deep scars and these scars manifest themselves as unconscious biases so much that whenever you see a beautiful woman (who will most probably reject you if you tried!) you are automatically bia…

I find it sad that the dating world has come up in this discussion. While I understand where the points came from, I don't believe that anyone's perception of anyone else as a potential sexual/romantic partner has a place in a discussion about the working world. Whether or not women are attracted to a particular person, to a particular programmer, or to the stereotype of a "programmer", has no bearing on their ability to program.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your rewrite is completely valid. Were you expecting it to be absurd? It's not. The same interesting questions arise. I think the point is, that when "women in tech" comes up, the default assumption that people (particularly feminists) tend to jump to is that sexism is keeping women out of tech. More specifically, that sexist guys in tech are keeping women out. Even when not stated explicitly, this accusation has bee…

I'm about to get on a plane and don't have time to fully rebut, but I assure you the treatment of men in nursing school is a problem taken very seriously. Google "recruiting men in nursing," to see more.

I'm afraid I didn't see this response until just now, so it's a bit late, but if you're still following this, I'd love to see some more specific references - I googled "recruiting men in nursing" and I see a ton of stuff about how to try to make nursing seem more appealing to guys, but nothing about accusations that the nursing establishment is hostile to men, certainly nothing similar to what is accused against the tech status-quo on a regular basis.

In particular, most of the links related to nursing seem to be making arguments analogous to the much derided "women aren't interested in tech because the work doesn't appeal to women" theory, arguing that men don't like nursing because the work is not perceived by them as male enough in various ways, not that they have any perceptions of anti-male bias in the nursing community. Quite frankly, I'd reject any such notions, since there is no such general feeling, at least none that I've ever heard, so that's not what's keeping people from walking through the nursing school door in the first place (otherwise, I figure I would have been at least cognizant of such a general perception).

Similarly, I'm skeptical whether tech really has any significant misogynist reputation once we look beyond feminist-in-tech bloggers and male me-too hangers-on - none of the women I know seem to have that impression (though granted, they're from pretty varied and non tech-centric backgrounds), and I certainly have not seen where I've worked.

When I have asked my female friends about their impressions of the computer world, they tend to think that yeah, it's a circle-jerk of forever-alone dorks, but they generally assume that they'd be more welcoming to women and more accepting of them than guys in most fields, not less. When asked why they don't do programming-ish stuff themselves, most have said stuff like "that's for the math geeks", and "I study people, not code" (crank the superiority knob to the max on both of those, btw - when I asked this, I got the definite sense that they thought the subject matter was distinctly below them). Not once have I heard "because I've heard that guys in tech treat women like shit" as an answer, which makes me very suspicious when people point to that as the definitive root cause...

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