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Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

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Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#171

Post by vladvasiliu »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #140
chrisseaton wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn’t move wearing Gore-TEX in my experience. If you stop and it’s wet you put it on while stopped. You take it off when you start moving again. If you’re moving you’re going to be wet anyway (sweat) so no point trying to stay dry from the outside. Best application is sleeping bag covers. Worst application is boots. Makes no sense.

Yep, goretex shoes are the height of stupid. If water ever goes over the top of the shoes, it is impossible for it to leave the shoe (since it is in liquid phase, not gaseous like water vapor).

Hard disagree. Goretex motorcycling boots are a godsend. You can easily get a lot of water on the shoes, and if you have waterproof pants that go over the boots, the water will not get inside.

Regular shoes that basically don't breathe are unusable when it's more than 20-25º C. It's not always practical to carry around two pairs of boots when out on a trip.

My pair of boots are usable in the rainy European winters at 0º C, all the way to the scorching heat of the Arizona desert. With regular shoes, I'd just freeze in the winter or have swampy feet in the summer. The wind speed sure helps in the latter, but it works against you in the former.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#172

Post by Thlom »

tra3 wrote: post #133
trillic wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, Gore-TEX shoes don't stay waterproof long enough to justify the cost in my mind. If I know my feet are going to be wet for 6+ hours I go with my shoes-with-drain and waterproof socks, over N layers of thin wool socks depending on temperature. I have only replaced the socks twice because I don't use em too much. I've found for offshore sailing or backpacking in the wet that Sealskinz (not gore-tex) are the best.…

That’s brilliant. I imagine waterproof socks also keep the moisture in as well? Is it worth it?

On expeditions in extreme conditions managing moisture is half the job. I read an interview with Børge Ousland (polar explorer, crossed the north pole in winter conditions on ski in 2019) about how he plans and executes expeditions. He use a thin wool sock, then a plastic bag(!), then a thick wool sock (or several wool socks) inside his shoes. So the inner sock will be wet by sweat, but the plastic bag stops the moisture so the thick wool sock and shoes are kept dry. Then at night he can dry the thin wool sock by keeping it close to his body. He also sleeps in a plastic bag inside the sleeping bag to keep moisture out of the sleeping bag.

It's quite interesting how these extreme expeditions work. They have to spend much of the time in the tent brushing ice off clothes, shoes, the tent itself, equipment and so on, because if the ice melts it will freeze again and shit will get ruined.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#173

Post by AYBABTME »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #140
chrisseaton wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn’t move wearing Gore-TEX in my experience. If you stop and it’s wet you put it on while stopped. You take it off when you start moving again. If you’re moving you’re going to be wet anyway (sweat) so no point trying to stay dry from the outside. Best application is sleeping bag covers. Worst application is boots. Makes no sense.

Yep, goretex shoes are the height of stupid. If water ever goes over the top of the shoes, it is impossible for it to leave the shoe (since it is in liquid phase, not gaseous like water vapor).

I used breathable boots but Goretex long socks (knee high) when doing infantry work in marshlands and wetted wood areas back in the military. It was a winning combination. The boot would get soaked and dry quickly, my feet kept dry. I'd put a lot of foot powder in my socks to avoid sweat ruining my feet.

Waterproof boots though are counterproductive.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#174

Post by dilyevsky »

tra3 wrote: post #131
ericmathison wrote: post #126

Andy Skurka has a good writeup on why Gore-Tex is mostly hype: https://andrewskurka.com/why-im-hard-on-gore-tex-the-king-of...

I’m nowhere near as accomplished as skurka, but I have some back country experience and I agree with him completely. Cheaper waterproof (not breathable) layers with ventilation (pit zips on jackets and full length zippers on pants) is the way to go. Paying premium for GORE-TEX has not been worth it in my experience.

Maybe for hiking. When working hard in more extreme conditions like trail running in the mountains, ice climbing, etc the difference between those cheap shells and real gore-tex or alternative like eVent is striking

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#175

Post by morsch »

account-5 wrote: post #163

I've had and goretex gear in the military and for hillwalking. I've always found the footwear to be too hot and causes my feet to sweat so much I get borderline trench foot. Waterproof wise it's only slightly better than non-goretex. My personal opinion is the price isn't worth it. For wet weather I'll stick with wellies, good socks and a poncho.

My feet get hot in my GTX boots, but they also get hot in almost everything else when I'm walking for hours on end. Overall, the boots are not the worst experience, and I can pretty comfortably wear them all day for a week, maybe because I tend to wear better socks in them.

Sandals and mesh sneakers are better in terms of heat, but not an option for many hiking trails (ymmv). And obviously not water proof.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#177

Post by nwiswell »

mint2 wrote: post #161
nwiswell wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep these are fluoropolymers. But I'm not sure how much that really matters... a regular un-fluoridated polymer like polyethylene that sticks around for a thousand years is not all that different in practice from a fluoropolymer that will stick around for a million years. If they're not recycled they go to landfill. Maybe more to the point, I'd much prefer to contaminate the environment with inert chemicals with a mi…

Except there’s many routes ptfe can turn harmful. If it burns it turns into horrible stuff. Guess it shouldn’t be used in California. And just as with polyethylene, additives like plasticizers and various other components added for processing can be a big issue. They used to use pfoa for helping process Teflon. Who knows what they use now. It’s probably unwise to be overly trusting.

All of this is true but it's totally unrelated to the fact that fluoropolymers are forever chemicals. Fluoropolymers themselves are harmless, even if their byproducts are not necessarily. And presumably the compounds of concern you've highlighted are actually not forever chemicals.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#178

Post by ce4 »

antman wrote: post #165
exabrial wrote: post #18

I recently learned in order for a product to have the Gore-Tex label, not only do you have to license the process/formula from them, but you have to send engineering samples to them and they perform their own independent testing before allowing you to actually sell the product. There’s no doubt part of the success is the chemistry of the product, but the required independent testing to very high standards also likely…

Gore tex has been many many years around, hasnt its patent expired?

You're free to buy other brands' membranes but if you want to use Gore-Tex then you'll have to sign that license agreement.

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#179

Post by MezzoDelCammin »

sva_ wrote: post #137
gorbypark wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, but Gore will honour their “guaranteed to keep you dry” warranty. I had a Gore-Tex jacket that the manufacturer refused to replace after it delaminated about 3 years after I bought it. One call to Gore and I got the purchase price of the jacket in a prepaid credit card sent to me after sending them the jacket.

Hmm, my Nike goretex shoes already lost their waterproof properties after 1 year of moderate use. I didn't know I could solve this thru Gore. Edit: I checked and bought these shoes in April 2020. I guess I will try to contact them?! The product was "Nike Air Zoom Pegasus 36 Trail GTX Gore Tex". I wonder where I should contact them?

GTX in shoes generally does not last very long. In my experience in about a season or so there are patches/ cracks that let the water in. I guess something to do with the stresses of using a soft membrane meant to wrap around human body to support the weight of said body...

Re: Gore-TEX, a lightweight, waterproof fabric made from the expanded form of PTFE

#180

Post by adrian_b »

jerlam wrote: post #82

Gore-TEX and other waterproof breathable (WPB) membrane fabrics are ridiculously oversold to people who don't spend much time outside. The amount of breathability they offer is ludicrously low compared to something like unzipping a jacket zipper or pit vent. If you're moving at all, a WPB jacket means that you'll be drenched from the inside due to sweat, and all that water repelled by your jacket ends up on your pant…

Until now, I have used Gore-Tex only in various kinds of shoes, for many years.

However, in all those kinds of shoes, Gore-Tex has provided a very noticeable improvement, through their ability of keeping the feet dry even when having to walk through water or partially-melted snow.

Even when just walking through a city for the daily commuting, I have found this feature very valuable, especially when going to an office where I would not be able to change my shoes with a dry pair.

So I disagree that Gore-Tex is useful only in an extended outdoor setting.

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