How to sell tickets fairly • Hacker News Board

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#171

Post by kqr » Sat, Nov 19, 2022, 9:33 AM UTC

Here's an even simpler method, that's actually more fair because it doesn't bias toward those with big pockets or much time or technical skill:

Open up for registration. Keep registration open until the date of the show. Registration costs the price of the ticket. As the show comes close, for as long as there are tickets not sold, randomly select some people every day who receive a ticket. On the day of the show, refund -- with interest -- the money of the people who were never offered a ticket.

I've never understood this obsession with first come, first served for extremely limited resources. Due to technical limitations it pretty much always turns out to be a lottery anyway, and we would save both customers and sysadmins trouble by explicitly turning it into one instead.

(Back in the days when it required camping outside the ticket office, it instead unfairly favoured those with lots of time on their hands, and/or lots of money.)

(I'm assuming "fair" here means that everyone has an equal chance, uncorrelated with any other aspect of their life. A random selection is the only method that can guarantee this property.)

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#172

Post by gnopgnip » Sat, Nov 19, 2022, 9:38 AM UTC

hiccuphippo wrote: post #97

hluska wrote: post #2

Pearl Jam tried to beat Ticketmaster. At the risk of sounding like the big fan I am, if Eddie Vedder and co. (at their commercial peak) can’t beat Ticketmaster, I’m not convinced that software can. I’ve been pasting this Rolling Stone link since I was in my teens. I can’t believe how old I am… https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/pearl-jam-taki...

Why can't they beat them? Advertise your website, people go to your website and click the buy button, a form shows up to fill their card data. What does Ticketmaster do that is better? Don't they have the same workflow?

Most artists don’t want to charge $20, they want to charge $200 and blame it on someone else. That is a big part of the value proposition for ticket master. And they can allow ticket resale so the artist/promoter gets another cut, so shows sell out faster.

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#173

Post by tigrezno » Sat, Nov 19, 2022, 9:45 AM UTC

mosseater wrote: post #47

An NFT solution to ticketing seems like it would be trivial given how NFTs operate already. One ticket could be verifiably owned by one person. If that person wanted to resell the ticket, there could be restrictions on how much they could sell it for. If bots can't make a profit there's no use in buying out all the tickets. It would also decentralize the space. Sure you need a marketplace for the NFT tickets, but tha…

NFT are the solution to this problem.

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#174

Post by tromp » Sat, Nov 19, 2022, 9:47 AM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #152

deanc wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s really easy in many European countries to prevent identity abuse. In Finland there is a system called “strong authentication” where you log in with your bank. It’s directly tied to your social security number and banks do a very strict job of identifying you in person before you open your accounts. It works and I’ve not heard of anyone gaming this system. It’s used by the banks themselves, the government, tax of…

> This is the solution. Strong authentication into a lottery. I really don't like using a lottery, because it assumes that everyone who wants to go to a particular concert has the same level of desire to go. A lot of people might just kind of want to go, while for others going is the most important thing in the world. With a lottery system, each of those people have an equal chance of getting to go. It seems unfair t…

> I want a system that allocates tickets to the people who want to go the most.

I can't think of a better way to measure desire than willingness to spend a long time waiting in line. So perhaps sell the more expensive lottery tickets online (with some proof of unique identity), and cheaper lottery tickets at the venue itself (still tied to identity) on a single day a few months in advance.

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#175

Post by punnerud » Sat, Nov 19, 2022, 9:47 AM UTC

In Norway you are not allowed to sell the tickets to a higher price, than the listing price.

You can actually go through with the buying from a third party, and demand a refund for the additional price afterward (and keep the ticket)

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#176

Post by onion2k » Sat, Nov 19, 2022, 9:54 AM UTC

Starting at $2000 for a concert where demand outstrips supply to the point where people will pay $4000 to a ticket scalper just means the minimum ticket price will be $2000. All the tickets will still sell out immediately. The audience will be entirely made up of wealthy people, or people who are willing to break the bank to see Taylor sing.

The only "fair" way to sell a good that's in high demand and you want everyone to have the same level of access regardless of their background is a lottery. Tell people what the price is, let them apply for tickets, and sell to people at random. Scalping can be stopped by not allowing people to transfer tickets to other people - people should get a refund in full and their tickets get resold to other people in the lottery if someone changes their mind.

The obvious problem with the lottery approach is that it entirely fails to maximize profit.

Personally, if I was selling tickets, I'd just not sell them "fairly". Accept that tickets are a luxury item, like Ferraris.

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#177

Post by tromp » Sat, Nov 19, 2022, 9:54 AM UTC

How about an auction of lottery tickets where the price is fixed but the probability of winning increases over time? Still identity verified so that each person can buy only one ticket and if they win they must attend themselves.

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#178

Post by blowski » Sat, Nov 19, 2022, 9:56 AM UTC

kqr wrote: post #171

Here's an even simpler method, that's actually more fair because it doesn't bias toward those with big pockets or much time or technical skill: Open up for registration. Keep registration open until the date of the show. Registration costs the price of the ticket. As the show comes close, for as long as there are tickets not sold, randomly select some people every day who receive a ticket. On the day of the show, ref…

I need to buy non-refundable hotels, train tickets, childcare, plus book time off work. Finding out whether all that's necessary with a few hours notice doesn't work.

If you could do something like this for some large proportion of the tickets, and give a month's notice, it might work.

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#179

Post by wanderingbort » Sat, Nov 19, 2022, 10:00 AM UTC

I will start to sound like a broken record soon but blockchain has provided a wealth of information about “fair” distribution games and their downfalls.

The NFT summer of 2021 saw first come first serve distros gamed by parties with superior network positioning.

Dutch auctions (from the article) strongly favored the wealthy buyers not fans or parties who “pay” with other things of value like their time.

Lotteries were easily games by sock puppets.

Lotteries with “strong” identity verification created grey markets for identities. Think about mechanical Turk but peoples task is to get a lottery ticket and remit the winnings.

People tried social credit systems where participating in community activities like discords earned you the spot in line. Again, services arose to farm these spots.

Fascinating microcosm of human behavior.

I agree with commenters that suggest refundable non-transferable tickets however, for goods this scarce where a secondary market is valuable, I don’t think we have a simple good solution.

Re: How to sell tickets fairly

#180

Post by blowski » Sat, Nov 19, 2022, 10:07 AM UTC

Ferret7446 wrote: post #137

bo1024 wrote: post #18

I think this is great if your goal is to clear the market at a competitive price. But a lot of artists want to sell tickets below market price. That makes the problem a lot harder. The obvious thing to do is have a lottery, but it's hard to stop people from using multiple identities (especially scalpers).

> But a lot of artists want to sell tickets below market price And I want to experience being a dragon, unicorn, billionaire, etc. We can want impossible things, but ignore reality at our own peril. You can't "beat" the market, you just force the market underground (black market, scalpers). The market ALWAYS pays what it can afford. If demand is greater than supply, and someone is willing to pay more for it, refer to…

The market! The market! The market! This invisible beast which controls everything for all eternity!

There are always ways of influencing the market. Taxes, subsidies, regulations, advertising. It requires imagination, but let's not feel ourselves enslaved completely to the invisible hand of the new leviathan.