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Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

bbc.com

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Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#171

Post by mike_d »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #110

I think the headline is a bit misleading. "given" immunity to me implied that there was some deal or something where the US government proactively gave MBS immunity. What happened was the US State Dept determined he had immunity due to his current role as Saudi Arabia PM. Thus, my understanding is that this would be standard diplomatic immunity, no? And if MBS ever stopped being PM he would lose that immunity, as MBS…

> Thus, my understanding is that this would be standard diplomatic immunity, no?

Diplomatic immunity is very nuanced and has multiple levels, but in general being a head of state alone does not qualify you. You need to hold a role within a diplomatic mission to the country in which you committed the crime.

Historically the US justice system has blocked civil suits against foreign states and heads of state out of respect for their sovereignty. The major exemption to this under the FSIA is if the foreign state has a commercial nexus to the United States. The Saudi sovereign wealth fund's multiple investments in the US absolutely pierce the protections they would have had.

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#172

Post by JumpCrisscross »

mikymoothrowa wrote: post #146
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> America’s superpower status rests on being the reserve currency for petroleum imports No, it doesn’t. America’s economy and thus voters like cheap oil. America’s massive consumer and industrial base underwrites its currency’s power.

Why does international oil trade primarily happen in dollars then even when USA is neither of those countries nor is it the biggest trade partner for either of those countries? Also, what industrial base? Also, How does Srilanka holding dollars benefit from a strong US consumer market?

> Why does international oil trade primarily happen in dollars then even when USA is neither of those countries nor is it the biggest trade partner for either of those countries?

Most international trade happens in dollars. This is due in part to competence: the Fed had electronic payments in 1915 [1]. In part to geopolitics: America was the only advanced economy not bombed into oblivion after WWII, an advantage it used to create the Bretton Woods system [2]. And in part to practicality: there aren't many freely-convertible currencies issued by big, stable countries.

> what industrial base?

The U.S. is a massive manufacturer and manufactured-goods exporter [3]. (Number 2 is Europe, another reserve currency issuer. Number 1 is China, which doesn't have an open capital account.)

> How does Srilanka holding dollars benefit from a strong US consumer market?

America is Sri Lanka's top export partner [4].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedwire#History

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretton_Woods_system

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_in_the_United_St...

[4] https://oec.world/en/profile/country/lka/

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#173

Post by FpUser »

lizardactivist wrote: post #170
FpUser wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the world did not mind going after Milosevich for example.

And it was good that we did go after him! But the issue is our own western leaders and generals walking free when they have the blood of hundreds of thousands innocent lives on their hands.

exactly the point

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#174

Post by diego_moita »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #122
diego_moita wrote: post #36

This is called "Realpolitik": international relations are meant to serve your national interests, not ethical principles. By now, the main national interest in the West is to not give oil money to the psychotic butcher in Moscow. The Saudi butcher is a little less psychotic by comparison. There are dozens of philosophers that advanced this idea: Sun Tzu, Machiavelli, Thomas Hobbes,... Many of the most famous statesme…

But this "Realpolitik" was already contested successfully by India ( among others ). Are you saying that this example does not test the rule? Perfect should not be the enemy of the good? I buy your argument, but your example is not good.

> contested successfully by India ( among others ).

Yes, also by my native country, Brazil. Shame on us for that.

In the end dirty affairs/realpolitik are what things are, not what they should be, right?

Up until WWII, "Realpolitik" is what gave us so many wars, so little commerce, so little international cooperation, so much European imperialism, ...

So I do agree we need to find ethics in international relations. One important reason my country (Brazil) gave up on slavery was British pressure. Global Warming won't be solved without ethics commitment.

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#175

Post by Kukumber »

tgv wrote: post #46
Kukumber wrote: post #34

And the US complains about Russia in Ukraine This comedy is fascinating

Whataboutism failing spectacularly.

Is "Whataboutism" a word that you learnt at your online CIA training course?

Joke aside, i don't think it's "whataboutism", it's more like identifying inconsistencies and contradictions in the way they operate, nothing more, a mere citizen who try to understand

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#176

Post by Ptchd »

chrsig wrote: post #7
sovnade wrote: post #3

So he can't be held liable because he is the Prime Minister of SA. Essentially the same thing here where the sitting President cannot be directly charged with a crime (or sued personally).

Or past presidents, it would seem.

Like Obama droning innocents, hospitals[1] and weddings[2]?

1. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-34471182

2. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/yemenis-drone-st...

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#177

Post by chrsig »

Ptchd wrote: post #176
chrsig wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or past presidents, it would seem.

Like Obama droning innocents, hospitals[1] and weddings[2]? 1. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-34471182 2. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/yemenis-drone-st...

oh, you're too late to claim the instigatory troll award. That already came and went. better luck next time.

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#178

Post by lazide »

cmh89 wrote: post #131
lazide wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is (and has been for a long time), an exporter of refined petroleum products such as Gasoline. In 2021, it also happened to be a net exporter or petroleum overall, but usually it bounces around. https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-produc... Saudi Arabia is key in keeping global energy prices lower by increasing global supply, and is also a key ally in a historically unstable region which impa…

>Saudi Arabia is key in keeping global energy prices lower by increasing global supply, and is also a key ally in a historically unstable region which impacts those prices. The key to keeping energy prices low for the US is to stop giving away our oil and then focus on shifting our economy to an energy source that can't be manipulated by foreign powers trying to influence our elections.

You seem to have strongly worded opinions, but I'm having a hard time figuring out what exactly you're asking for.

Petroleum is ~ 8% of the US GDP, and produces about $1.7 trillion dollars a year in direct economic activity, employing about 10 million folks.

Near as I can tell, the US doesn't give away any of our oil at all. It sells it, at market rate, often after doing a lot of value add refining.

Some of it goes to domestic use, some of it gets exported internationally, depending on the specific mix of market demands at the moment.

Are you proposing the US... ban exports of Oil or oil products? Or ban imports or Oil or oil products? Or invest a lot of money in alternative energy/renewable energy? Or take over enough oil producing countries no one can manipulate prices except us?

Or something else?

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#179

Post by Ptchd »

chrsig wrote: post #177
Ptchd wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like Obama droning innocents, hospitals[1] and weddings[2]? 1. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-34471182 2. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/yemenis-drone-st...

oh, you're too late to claim the instigatory troll award. That already came and went. better luck next time.

Does that mean that you don't mind that Obama did these things? not really sure....
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