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When the push button was new, people were freaked

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171–180 of 189 posts

Re: When the push button was new, people were freaked

#171
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"They" always do this, get 100 people and take the dumbest 5 and act like it's a representative sample.

The whole point of MIT is supposed to be concentrating 0.5% top smartest people from all over the country (~1mil /5000 MIT graduates every year). It doesnt look good if 5% of the 0.5% top smartest people are still idiots.

MIT has degrees in Design, Finance, Chinese, American Studies, History etc…

I wouldn’t expect a very smart history major to be much better at this task than the average person.

Re: When the push button was new, people were freaked

#172
post #153
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any reason you couldn't have made the point explicit the first time? Were you worried that others' reading skills would atrophy if they only needed to read 100 words to get the point, and so you posted 400 words while still missing a critical block of 50?

>Were you worried that others' reading skills would atrophy if they only needed to read 100 words to get the point, and so you posted 400 words while still missing a critical block of 50? If you truly think that's why people write long-form prose then I totally understand your ire towards it -- but unfortunately that idea is so far away from reality that I'm afraid I don't understand at all. At the risk of being an i…

>If you truly think that's why people write long-form prose then I totally understand your ire towards it

Woosh? That was a tongue-in-cheek reference back to the original Socrates/Plato quote worrying about thinking skills atrophying due to writing.

For someone so married to the idea of being a deep thinker, who rigorously and patiently reads thick prose, you sure missed an obvious reference.

>At the risk of being an inaccurate arm-chair psychoanalyst I think that your anger and aggression

There's no need to psychoanalyze. Cercatrova took ~400 words, most of which were unnecessary, to bring up an idea, and not even make clear what part of the article it was related too. That's a really wasteful form of communication, and I pointed out why, then later on showed a better way to do it.

Most people would appreciate being told how they could communicate an idea better, and if there's someone here with a toxic personality, I would say it's the one who's trying to medicalize it and act like it's some kind of mental illness, rather than a request for common courtesy.

If you want to ascribe a personality trait to me, how about "distaste at people who waste others' time making their ideas obscure through poor communication", and I have to ask -- why don't you have that personality trait as well? Do you not like when others understand your ideas? Are you worried they'll better see the flaws?

Re: When the push button was new, people were freaked

#173
post #111
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has a block of text, whose purpose isn't clear at the beginning [1], and requires you to read the entire comment, in its thick prose, and the article in order to understand, and even then you have to guess which point its referring, but could be wrong because cercatrova didn't actually own one. Here is how I would have done the comment: --- >people worried that the electric push button would make human skills atro…

That’s usually how human conversations go. It’s not always efficient. You should try it sometime.

Like "life isn't fair" and "most vendors have an abusive EULA", if you ever find yourself saying that to defend your side ... you're probably on the wrong side.

Clear communication is good. You should welcome suggestions for how to communicate better. "Try it sometime", as it were.

Re: When the push button was new, people were freaked

#174
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any reason you couldn't have made the point explicit the first time? Were you worried that others' reading skills would atrophy if they only needed to read 100 words to get the point, and so you posted 400 words while still missing a critical block of 50?

I have to say, this post if anything is a meta argument that Plato was actually right. Behold the impatience and inattentiveness to read a short section that literally takes two minutes to parse. The internet has made people far to impatient.

No, Plato wasn't right that you should make people take 2 minutes to listen to your point when you could have made it in ten seconds.

And not that the personal attack was warranted, but: I'm happy to read dense material; I'd just like to know if it is worth my time first. By making me read all of the material first before I know what point it's building to, and not knowing the relevant to the article, you've made me take a lot of time just to learn that you were making a point I already agreed with.

Is wasting others' time a virtue, in your mind?

Re: When the push button was new, people were freaked

#175
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any reason you couldn't have made the point explicit the first time? Were you worried that others' reading skills would atrophy if they only needed to read 100 words to get the point, and so you posted 400 words while still missing a critical block of 50?

Let’s just cut ‘2001: A Space Odyssey’ down to 40 minutes, because - why couldn’t Kubrick just compress all that slow motion classical music stuff down to the actual point of the movie? ‘Humanity makes first contact. They send out a spaceship to the source. The AI on the ship becomes sentient and murderous. One man escapes, and arrives at the source. He exits his 3 dimensional existence and enters a psychedelic-esque…

What is that responding to? I wasn't opposed to reading or referencing the full text. My criticism was that it should have led with the core point, so people know what point you're making before they dive into the long exposition of it.

What you're advocating here is basically saying that people should never read the description of a movie, or know anything about it, before starting on it, because that's mainly what my edit change. Do you really believe that?

Furthermore, HN isn't a movie. If you're going to take two and half hours to make a point, just don't bother with posting.

Re: When the push button was new, people were freaked

#176
post #132
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has a block of text, whose purpose isn't clear at the beginning [1], and requires you to read the entire comment, in its thick prose, and the article in order to understand, and even then you have to guess which point its referring, but could be wrong because cercatrova didn't actually own one. Here is how I would have done the comment: --- >people worried that the electric push button would make human skills atro…

> It has a block of text, whose purpose isn't clear at the beginning [1], and requires you to read the entire comment Nah. It makes you think, I personally like to practice the art of thinking, of making connections between seemingly unconnected things, like Socrates and push buttons. Try to guess the point of a big comment by a first few sentences. And here I guessed right, that it would be about dangers of writing.…

>It makes you think, I personally like to practice the art of thinking, of making connections between seemingly unconnected things, like Socrates and push buttons

So I guess I can add you to the list of people missing the irony.

There three "technologies" here: writing, push buttons, and clear writing.

In historical context -- because of cercatrova's oh-so clever, unclear comment -- we can laugh at how foolish it was to dismiss writing or push buttons as "causing atrophy".

Now, I'm advocating the third "technology", clear writing, and you're responding exactly like the very same ridiculed people: "Oh no, if people write clearly, then others won't get necessary practice in tolerating crappy prose! I'm a superior person who can parse crappy prose -- don't take that advantage from me!"

> force myself to read thick prose sometimes, it is a way to practice attention and an ability to understand others. Maybe it was the reason why it was easy to me to guess the point of the comment?

So, what, you're saying you're more deserving of knowing the point of the comment than others? That it's good that they didn't get it?

>You are silently assume that a clarity and the ease of consumption is among of the top priorities. But it may not be so. Didn't you think that a comment about letters can be composed in a thick and hard to comprehend prose on a purpose to make some point about letters (that are supposed to be easy)? And about buttons too (that are supposed to be easy too)? I do not see what this point may be, but it could be because I'm too stupid to see it.

Or because the point could have been made explicit, but wasn't. In any case, with this comment, you've indicated you've drunk the koolaid. You're actually defending people making themselves harder to understand than necessary, rather than maturely accepting feedback on how to make your point clearer.

Re: When the push button was new, people were freaked

#177
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] they must be chauffeured by car since the urban environment is more and more suburban, [...] That is a contributor, but not the only one. Helicopter parenting by itself also shares some of the blame.

It's a reinforcing phenomenon, with helicopter parenting being one of the facets. The usual way it goes is 1. Parents say the street / road is too dangerous. 2. Parents drive their kids everywhere. 3. They induce more road usage, demand more road infrastructure. They move to suburbs which are more car centric, force more pedestrianized areas (downtowns) to become more car centric. 4. Places become less walkable, and…

Agreed.

About the self-reinforcement: London is a great example of how to evade this trend.

You see, London pedestrians seem almost suicidal. They often cross the road without even looking. In addition, by law traffic-lights in the UK are only advisory for pedestrians: crossing the road when the lights are red is legal and common.

Individually, each 'suicidal' pedestrian endangers their own life. But collectively they train drivers to watch out and make London safer for everyone.

It feels like some sort of inversion of the tragedy of the commons.

(London still has helicopter parents. At least more than they used to have in previous decades. But the feedback loop seems weaker than what you describe for the US.)

Re: When the push button was new, people were freaked

#178
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Class isn't all about money.

And being a clerk instead of a workman isn't a ticket to the aristocracy either ...

There are more levels to class than 'aristocracy'. A lot of it is just perception and known rules, and so the fact you know to compare a clerk and a workman means you already know there's a perceived or known difference in status.

Re: When the push button was new, people were freaked

#179
post #169
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't too clear apparently. More instructions needed :) So, yes, he explicitly mentioned something, that's why I mentioned too. What I think the problem is that he implies in that sentence that either reading is more instructionless than hearing/talking, or that somehow good instruction itself should just grow on trees, or that instruction is always good, or that ratio of instructioned knowledge vs "ignorance" mat…

Dialogue has several distinct advantages over reading when it comes to learning. I think we both agree that applied knowledge is best, but this can only be gained through application. Dialogue forces you synthesize ideas into new statements and respond to challenges to those statements which is intrinsically more applied than simply reading alone. There's a good amount of research inicating that discussion and speaki…

> Dialogue forces you synthesize ideas into new statements and respond to challenges to those statements which is intrinsically more applied than simply reading alone.

Exactly!

Talking about a subject helps organize it.

> This is why I get into silly arguments on HN in the first place, gotta supplement that reading ;)

Ah, the good old Feynman criterion. You don't understand something until you can explain it to a 6th grader or a HNer ^^

> Reading makes knowledge acquisition easier, but it also decreases the fraction of knowledge that comes bundled with expert 1-on-1.

Experts are scarce, books are cheap.

Also if a bunch of people read a book, it has the same content for everybody. So if people recommend a book and you read it you can be fairly sure that you all read the same thing. But if a bunch of people talk to someone, and they say oh that someone is great, but then they don't like you, or they are in a bad mood, or ... or, you won't really know what's up. (Recently happened to me with a recommendation to a doctor. I'm still fed up with how useless it was to spend money on that doc and how high praise he got.)

Re: When the push button was new, people were freaked

#180
post #176
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It has a block of text, whose purpose isn't clear at the beginning [1], and requires you to read the entire comment Nah. It makes you think, I personally like to practice the art of thinking, of making connections between seemingly unconnected things, like Socrates and push buttons. Try to guess the point of a big comment by a first few sentences. And here I guessed right, that it would be about dangers of writing.…

>It makes you think, I personally like to practice the art of thinking, of making connections between seemingly unconnected things, like Socrates and push buttons So I guess I can add you to the list of people missing the irony. There three "technologies" here: writing, push buttons, and clear writing. In historical context -- because of cercatrova's oh-so clever, unclear comment -- we can laugh at how foolish it was…

> Now, I'm advocating the third "technology", clear writing,

And you are doing it in a response to the obscure prose of Socrates. It shows one more time that Socrats' obscure prose make people think. Cleverer people than me and you read Socrates in a search of novel ideas. And you succeeded.

> and you're responding exactly like the very same ridiculed people: "Oh no, if people write clearly, then others won't get necessary practice in tolerating crappy prose! I'm a superior person who can parse crappy prose -- don't take that advantage from me!"

Yes. Do you think it makes me a bad person? I believe not: I did my best to explain you benefits of my skills and how to acquire them. I'm not so egoistic, I'm ready to share my wisdom with a random person without charging them money.

> Or because the point could have been made explicit, but wasn't.

Had you experience of deciphering such an obscure point? Did you feel the fun it gives? I cannot agree that everyone on every occasion must seek the maximum clarity, it would take away the fun.

> In any case, with this comment, you've indicated you've drunk the koolaid.

Wow. You've almost won. But no. I checked wikipedia and urbandictionary, and I know what you mean by "you've drunk the koolaid". Urbandictionary explains: "Kool-Aid" is what one drinks metaphorically, in the context of a political campaign, when faced with an eminent loss. The term was popularly referenced in the 1993 film, "The War Room" by George Stephonopolous when he states, "I'm afraid we're all going to have to drink Kool-Aid."

My skills of understanding are stronger than your skills of making yourself obscure by using references to a folklore. Though it was a nice attempt to win argument by using a form as a point. I like it, really. Much better than obscure Socrates' prose arguing that letters are easy. I can say even I'm a little frustrated to decipher it, because it would be a really good point, you deserved to win just for being able to use it.

> You're actually defending people making themselves harder to understand than necessary, rather than maturely accepting feedback on how to make your point clearer.

Why do you think they need your feedback? With all we know about them they can be better than you and me combined at making their point clear, but decided on this specific occasion to speak riddles.

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