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Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

reuters.com

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Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#171

Post by ThePowerOfFuet »

pseudo0 wrote: post #147
ThePowerOfFuet wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's even more interesting still is that you had the opportunity to (attempt to) disprove any of it while replying, but did not do so.

The article mentions the hole in their argument and then glosses over it: > There are exceptions, but these are the general principles that bind speakers of Russian and English. These exceptions include collections of states (eg. the UAE, the US) and country names derived from regions (the Netherlands, the Congo, the Ukraine).

>These exceptions include collections of states (eg. the UAE, the US) and country names derived from regions

Let's take these one by one:

>the Netherlands This is plural: the Low Countries. You are referring to a group, same as the United Arab Emirates and the United States.

>the Congo Which one? ... Exactly.

>the Ukraine Already discussed, referring to it as a region denies its sovereignty.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#172

Post by JumpCrisscross »

stackola wrote: post #169
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we were talking about sabotage This is a message, a fuckup or an accident. What it is not is a successful covert operation by a competent intelligence agency.

... is what the intelligence agency would say.

> is what the intelligence agency would say

Intelligence agencies will say anything. Everyone crafting pet conspiracy theories today belies either underlying motive or incompetence. (I tend to assume the latter.) It’s in the same category as same-day armchair crash investigation. Fact-driven analysis not yet possible, the discussion gets dominated by those fitting data to their worldviews.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#173

Post by JumpCrisscross »

lm28469 wrote: post #168
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> these aren't egg cartons, they're meant to be there Egg cartons in place of tank reactive armour may be on a schematic. That makes it no less useless. To say the Russian military is operating with top kit denies the battlefield reality.

- they're not egg cartons - what do you know about russian tank armor ? > To say the Russian military is operating with top kit denies the battlefield reality. Yes, but where did I say the opposite ? There are dozens of reports showing it's running on fumes, there is no need to ridicule ourselves by propagating factually wrong infos Saying "X fact" about russia is wrong doesn't mean someone supports their action. We…

> what do you know about russian tank armor ?

Nothing. Don’t need to. Whether designers put useless armour on the tank or a factory worker messed with a well-designed tank is irrelevant. The tanks were kitted with worthless armour.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#174

Post by stackola »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #172
stackola wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... is what the intelligence agency would say.

> is what the intelligence agency would say Intelligence agencies will say anything. Everyone crafting pet conspiracy theories today belies either underlying motive or incompetence. (I tend to assume the latter.) It’s in the same category as same-day armchair crash investigation. Fact-driven analysis not yet possible, the discussion gets dominated by those fitting data to their worldviews.

And yet you make the assertion "What it is not is a successful covert operation by a competent intelligence agency."

"Coicidence theories" (for lack of a better word) are just as difficult to prove on day 1.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#177

Post by pxtail »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #75
tokai wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be anyone. Could even be a private person. But yeah its definitely not Russia.

Yep, russia controls "the valve", so it doesn't need to destroy the pipelines, and the minute EU (well, mostly germany) decides to negiotiate, putin can open the valve. With this, even if they negotiate, there won't be any gas soon. So, it's bad for russia, bad for eu, and the only one being better of is USA... who was threathened to do exactly this more than once. https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1490792461979078662

Not necessarily as it could be Russian false flag operation to justify retaliation in the form of, for example Baltic Pipe damage

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#178

Post by lm28469 »

keewee7 wrote: post #164
lm28469 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [Citation needed] Really ? How naive can you be ? It's a communication war as much as a regular war It's never all black or all white, if you can't understand that I feel sorry for you. The reality is bad enough, we don't need to swallow every bit of info coming out of Ukraine. If you believe Russian tanks are filled with egg cartons because you saw a blurry pic on twitter I don't even know what to tell you. Once a…

I was addressing your claim that Ukraine is "infinitely better" at propaganda than Russia.

Russia's propaganda barely even work inside of its own border while Ukraine's conquered the west, even on this platform smart individual believe random tweets without even questioning it

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/ukraine-propaganda-war

https://www.nzz.ch/international/ukraine-die-kunst-der-propa...

https://theconversation.com/how-ukraine-is-adapting-the-anci...

I'm not even saying it's bad, it just is, I have a hard time understanding how people can't see it. Is it because "propaganda" as a bad connotation and nothing bad can be linked to Ukraine ?

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#179

Post by JumpCrisscross »

stackola wrote: post #174
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is what the intelligence agency would say Intelligence agencies will say anything. Everyone crafting pet conspiracy theories today belies either underlying motive or incompetence. (I tend to assume the latter.) It’s in the same category as same-day armchair crash investigation. Fact-driven analysis not yet possible, the discussion gets dominated by those fitting data to their worldviews.

And yet you make the assertion "What it is not is a successful covert operation by a competent intelligence agency." "Coicidence theories" (for lack of a better word) are just as difficult to prove on day 1.

> you make the assertion "What it is not is a successful covert operation by a competent intelligence agency."

Yup. Because obvious, minor disablement not in anyone’s interest. Russia, U.S. or Europe. It might be latent capabilities firing early (fuckup), rogue elements (fuckup), et cetera. But anyone arguing this news benefits America or Moscow is already outside reality.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#180

Post by dividedbyzero »

stackola wrote: post #159
jl6 wrote: post #154

The only thing that will put this pipeline back into operation is rehabilitation of Russia, which will involve unconditional withdrawal from Ukraine, apology, $350bn of reparations, and a war crimes tribunal.

Or a new German government, but your option seems more likely.

That's within the realm of possibility I guess. The three parties in the current government are struggling quite hard to find a common strategy to manage this crisis, so it's not entirely certain that they'll make it to the next regular elections, and the far left and right have largely positioned themselves in favor of taking both Nord Streams online and appeasing Russia, and that view is apparently also held by part of the conservative electorate, who might drift rightward if the crisis deepens. If there were elections in late winter, who knows how that would turn out, especially for the AFD party on the right.
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