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Senior engineers are living in the future

zerobanana.com

171–180 of 241 posts

Re: Senior engineers are living in the future

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Surprising your manager unpleasantly never leads to good outcomes for you... Not quite 'my' manager directly, but a client's PM. They had a ... PM/PO type person who was quite insistent that we had to have feature X by date Y. Slightly aggressive, but... sure. Between that insistence (over weeks) and the date Y... that person left and a new person started. 4 days before a walk through (where new items were demonstr…

Well, yes. Shitty management still exists. And the power imbalance is always there. I'm not saying not surprising your manager guarantees good outcomes, I'm just saying surprising them guarantees bad outcomes. The lesson I've drawn for myself from similar incidents is "know all the stakeholders, and talk to them". Consulting/client work makes it extra hard, because stakeholders just keep coming out of the woodwork :(

I'm not sure how much more I could have communicated. "Feature X is done and i'm going to show it on thursday". "OK looks good".

Behind the scenes, without telling me, telling other stakeholders "feature X is not being done".

Demo feature X.

"Whoah, you really blindsided us and made people look like they don't know what they're doing".

Had this been, say, 5 weeks ahead of time, yeah, maybe. This was ... 3 days? Monday afternoon to Thursday afternoon - maybe you could count that as 4.

This had grown to the point where I wasn't allowed to directly talk to the major stakeholders. This demo meeting was the time to talk to them, for a dog and pony show only. 18 months earlier we had more regular (still in a group) communication, but it was possible to talk directly. As this grew, my own ability to talk directly to people was layered with middlemen, which exacerbated this sort of problem (had happened before, but never for something this 'important').

What's... funny about all this is that the earlier PM had made this feature of paramount important, but it turns out ... no one is using it.

EDIT: both at the time, and now, I looked at it as "mistake". we're human and things happen. but it was framed as "lowercased was hiding information, working in secret". this was not the case.

Re: Senior engineers are living in the future

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yes. Shitty management still exists. And the power imbalance is always there. I'm not saying not surprising your manager guarantees good outcomes, I'm just saying surprising them guarantees bad outcomes. The lesson I've drawn for myself from similar incidents is "know all the stakeholders, and talk to them". Consulting/client work makes it extra hard, because stakeholders just keep coming out of the woodwork :(

The power imbalance fascinates me - why should it exist at all? Do as I say or else? Why not, credible mission, great story telling, compelling vision, a well argued rationale. I mean. If we paid everyone UBI, then every compmay would look a lot like the Linux Kernel (insert preferred less shouty FOSS project here)

Because communication is inefficient.

If you have to produce a well-reasoned argument, and successfully convince all peers that your argument is in fact well-reasoned, and comprehensive, and handles all concerns of all involved or potentially involved, and that all opposing arguments do not meet these criteria… it will take ages to get all stakeholders in agreement, and even when you do, you get a horse designed by committee (a camel).

Projects with no owner consistently end up in the same rut — always planning but never doing. Bikeshedding.

So you need the owner. But for someone to own the project/task, he needs to be in charge of it — he needs power. For what is power if not the ability to make a decision and have others follow through on it?

In arenas without defined power relationships, but manage to produce useful work, it’s usually the case that the power relationships still exist; they’ve just been made implicit. You see this in geopolitics, in your high school group projects, in Valve, etc. Determined not by corporate hierarchy, but instead charisma, money, social networks, physical/military strength, etc. Most of which is reflected by the corporate hierarchy anyways.

Businesses just make it explicit, and consider it valuable enough to attach higher pay. You might make the argument that managers don’t deserve higher pay than an individual contributor, but it’s clear enough that a manager has much higher potential impact than an IC — if you manage 100 resources, making them 10% more efficient than otherwise, you’re doing the effective work of 10 ICs. But in my head, a resource-managers role is primarily to make his team more efficient — by optimizing processes, clearing blockers, umbrella’ing against shit from on high, reporting upwards, to guide the overall direction of all involved — not to dictate the every individual activities of his underlings.

Also the Linux Kernel clearly has a power hierarchy, and while that power hierarchy doesn’t dictate what you work on, it does dictate whether your work can hold any value (by getting included into mainline). The difference just ends up being in the fact that it really doesn’t cost anyone anything for you to continuously do work that’s ultimately rejected every time, whereas for a business it obviously does (in the format of your salary). Obviously you can fork if you want and make it perhaps valuable… but you can exit the hierarchy just as well in business by quitting.

Re: Senior engineers are living in the future

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that egos can be really fragile when people are just starting to learn things. Pointing out the mistakes so quickly can seem like a great help (and it is!) but some people react like they're staring at the sun. Instead, I find it better (except for how long it takes) to walk them through finding the problem as if it's really hard and just nudging them to the steps they'd need to take to find it themselves. The…

I find slow-walking someone through a problem can sometimes come off as condescending. I take a different approach where I immediately point out the issue, and if they get discouraged about how fast I solved the problem, I remind them that I’ve spent hours banging my head against the same issue. They will probably run into this same issue again, and get stuck again, but next time they’ll figure it out faster, and the…

The circle of life!

Re: Senior engineers are living in the future

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easier said than done, no? I think one of the defining qualities of an ego is deceiving the individual into behavior - ymmv. But that’s why failure, psychedelic experiences, and more are important (imo) - for keeping the ego in check

Sure, in the same way that "surviving to old age" is easier said than done. It's true, but what choice do you have?

Indeed. Parent post did mention “try… as much as possible” and that seems appropriate.

Re: Senior engineers are living in the future

#175

Oh God. No. "Ensure that you are fulfilling the expectations of your manager" Please please do not assume your manager is any good at their job. Talk to your users. Find a way to identify them and get feedback from them. Keep your manager in the loop sure. But don't wait for requirements to come down from on high. "Every step up in job title is equivalent to living perhaps 1–2 days further into the future." No. If an…

> Talk to your users. Find a way to identify them and get feedback from them. Keep your manager in the loop sure. But don't wait for requirements to come down from on high.

As a senior engineer that is what my manager expects me to do. In fact I'm often expected to define the requirements before working on them. Often when I get the requirements refined enough I hand them off to other engineers.

Of course there is personality involved here. I pass things off before I don't enjoy the boring grunt work of putting the final polish on, but I work with people who prefer to put the polish on an already solved problem. This is a win-win as both of us avoid things we don't like. (note, putting polish on is at least 90% of the work, so I can't completely get out of that, and junior engineers never can). There are other problems that other senior engineers work on that I never touch - they are the experts not me

Re: Senior engineers are living in the future

#176
> The first—and most important—thing is to stop comparing yourself with others.

I'm "yes and no" on this. The reason is that I often look at the work/process/product of others, as inspiration. There's a lot of folks that are better than I am, and it is a good idea for me to keep an eye on what they do, and how they do it.

What I don't do, is compete with others. I am not competitive, and I'm fine with that.

Unfortunately, that seems to be a bit of an aberration. I am constantly having others take a competitive stance with me, and it can add a lot of friction; when they refuse to share information, make a point of being "snooty" with me, or assume that, when I talk about my work, I'm trying to cast their work in a negative light.

That's not usually the case. I have very high standards, and I hold myself to them. If I will be incorporating the work of others, in mine, then I'll hold them to high standards.

Otherwise, I've actually found a lot of gems in things like sloppy StackOverflow examples. Their lashup code may solve my problem, and I can take their solution, and refactor it into one that meets my own bar. I don't waste any time, thinking negatively about the other person. In fact, I'm usually fairly effusive, in my thanks. The person is often coming from an academic point of view, and are not concerned about the practicalities of shipping software.

There's so damn much negativity, these days; often driven directly by competitiveness, that I feel I need to reduce my contribution to it.

Re: Senior engineers are living in the future

#177

Where I am often hung up in comparison is due to age. I dropped out of college and spent my early 20s learning agriculture and construction. Now I work in software engineering and my current manager is younger than me. Not only is he younger than me, but he's been able to climb up to an engineering manager in a shorter amount of time than I've been working as a SWE. So I feel really lame - wasted so much time early i…

"The goal is not to be better than someone else; the goal is to be better than you were yesterday." (to paraphrase the Dalai Lama)

Re: Senior engineers are living in the future

#178

Oh God. No. "Ensure that you are fulfilling the expectations of your manager" Please please do not assume your manager is any good at their job. Talk to your users. Find a way to identify them and get feedback from them. Keep your manager in the loop sure. But don't wait for requirements to come down from on high. "Every step up in job title is equivalent to living perhaps 1–2 days further into the future." No. If an…

>"Ensure that you are fulfilling the expectations of your manager"

"Just tell me what to do" is like the anti-senior developer philosophy, particularly if you report to someone who is non-tech.

If you're senior you should be the one setting the expectations and lay out a (working) plan to fulfill them.

Re: Senior engineers are living in the future

#179
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The power imbalance fascinates me - why should it exist at all? Do as I say or else? Why not, credible mission, great story telling, compelling vision, a well argued rationale. I mean. If we paid everyone UBI, then every compmay would look a lot like the Linux Kernel (insert preferred less shouty FOSS project here)

Because communication is inefficient. If you have to produce a well-reasoned argument, and successfully convince all peers that your argument is in fact well-reasoned, and comprehensive, and handles all concerns of all involved or potentially involved, and that all opposing arguments do not meet these criteria… it will take ages to get all stakeholders in agreement, and even when you do, you get a horse designed by c…

> You might make the argument that managers don’t deserve higher pay than an individual contributor, but it’s clear enough that a manager has much higher potential impact than an IC — if you manage 100 resources, making them 10% more efficient than otherwise, you’re doing the effective work of 10 ICs

Maybe. Supply and demand is always at play. If any manager can make 100 developers more 10% more efficient, but only a few people who have any ability to be a developer at all, then the developers are worth more. Numbers are relative to supply - my company has discovered we have to get ICs better raises than their manager at the lower levels as our great developers were becoming managers. We can get managers from lots of different entry level areas, but not enough engineers.

Re: Senior engineers are living in the future

#180

Oh God. No. "Ensure that you are fulfilling the expectations of your manager" Please please do not assume your manager is any good at their job. Talk to your users. Find a way to identify them and get feedback from them. Keep your manager in the loop sure. But don't wait for requirements to come down from on high. "Every step up in job title is equivalent to living perhaps 1–2 days further into the future." No. If an…

Edit on the above: I am coming across way more negative than I planned. I just want to counter-balance the underlying assumptions that a workplace is somehow fair, or has your interests at heart. They are collectively controlling ~50% of GDP resource allocation, they are effective dictatorships for the executive "class" and perfect competition that would keep them in line is rare in most industries.

Perhaps I am saying that changing the game is better for everyone than learning to play the current one well.

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