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Cheating at chess with a computer for my shoes

incoherency.co.uk

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Re: Cheating at chess with a computer for my shoes

#171
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't sound like Magnus has made any accusation, right?

Yes, because he's far too professional to do that without ironclad proof. And even if he had ironclad proof, he might still not go public.

If he had ironclad proof, he'd hand it over to the arbitration committee / judges; it's not very professional I think to accuse people directly, even with proof.

Re: Cheating at chess with a computer for my shoes

#172
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1981206 (a blitz to be compared against https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=2372960 from 2 days ago).

Good catch. I was searching for a game without Nf3, but this is effectively a transposition. One minor point folks aren't mentioning that I think works in Neimann's favor - Carlsen is known for enjoying the Catalan, and the opening in the game was essentially a Nimzo/Catalan hybrid. This fact makes Neimann's supposed pre-game prep a bit more palatable. Everything else (postgame interview, past history, Twitter antics…

You could stick the computer in your shoe, like the submission suggests?

Or you could swallow a buzzer? The input could come from someone who watches the board from afar?

Re: Cheating at chess with a computer for my shoes

#173

Though I'm not much of a poker player myself, I am friends with many professionals who have found success both online and offline, in games from pot-limit omaha to no-limit hold-em. Cheating in online poker has been around for many years, with varying success by online gaming companies to implement anti-cheat measures in their software. With recent developments in AI, there is renewed discussion about cheating as the…

Which AI has beat humans at poker? I'm curious as I just heard a guest on Lex Fridman's podcast say differently... I'm not up to speed with that realm

IIRC if you take out the human element of poker (bluffing), it becomes a statistics / numbers game - at least, I see 'win chance' numbers on the off occasion I see poker on TV. Knowing your chances and being able to guess at other players' gives you an advantage.

Re: Cheating at chess with a computer for my shoes

#174

Though I'm not much of a poker player myself, I am friends with many professionals who have found success both online and offline, in games from pot-limit omaha to no-limit hold-em. Cheating in online poker has been around for many years, with varying success by online gaming companies to implement anti-cheat measures in their software. With recent developments in AI, there is renewed discussion about cheating as the…

Yeah I'm fairly sure there's security checks at these tournaments and the environment gets tightly controlled; I wouldn't be surprised if they go as far as have everyone and everything that goes into the playing room go through a full-body X-ray.

Re: Cheating at chess with a computer for my shoes

#176
I'd be interested if any HN members consider James Stanley a 'cyborg' with the shoes on?

From what I've found on Wikipedia, it sounds like wearing the shoes is an, "integration of some artificial component or technology that relies on some sort of feedback."

This got me thinking that the Nike shoes Marty wore in Back to the Future 2 could also be considered a cybernetics enhancement.

To what degree does a device need to be integrated with a human body for that human not to be considered a human any more?

Re: Cheating at chess with a computer for my shoes

#177
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, somehow I missed this. Pretty wild accusations from Magnus and Hikaru on this. Hans just had a horrific tournament in his last attempt, which makes this whole thing pretty interesting. Hans didn't play engine perfect lines when beating Magnus in the Sinquefield Cup, though he obviously played extremely accurately.

It doesn't sound like Magnus has made any accusation, right?

Withdrawing from the tournament is the loudest accusation you can make without words. I'd rather believe Hans on this https://youtu.be/GSLM1K6O6aU?t=1507

Re: Cheating at chess with a computer for my shoes

#178

This is relevant to today's events because Magnus Carlsen just withdrew from a tournament[1] after yesterday's loss to a significantly lower rated opponent who had previously been suspended for cheating on chess.com. The tournament organizers have also implemented additional anti-cheating protocols starting today. Whatever comes out of these accusations, the chess world will sure enjoy its new infusion of drama. [1]…

Wow, somehow I missed this. Pretty wild accusations from Magnus and Hikaru on this. Hans just had a horrific tournament in his last attempt, which makes this whole thing pretty interesting. Hans didn't play engine perfect lines when beating Magnus in the Sinquefield Cup, though he obviously played extremely accurately.

I think it is important to notice that Magnus actually didn't make any actual accusation.

Re: Cheating at chess with a computer for my shoes

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Magnus Carlsen would have a real hard time drawing stockfish on a phone 1/100 games.

My impression from reading about chess engines online is that drawing is far simpler if that is your explicit goal. Several comments online on different websites claims that they are able to end games in draws against stockfish.

There's a parameter called "contempt" that you can increase to make the engine avoid draws.

The idea is that if the engine has "contempt" for the opponent, it assigns a negative value to a draw, instead of assigning it a value of zero. The engine will then only attempt to draw if it thinks that it is actually in a worse position, but it will not go for a draw in an objectively drawn game. The engine will even play suboptimal moves in order to avoid drawing.

When playing against evenly matched opponents, contempt makes the engine perform worse. But against weaker opponents (such as human super-grandmasters), contempt can make the engine score significantly better.

Re: Cheating at chess with a computer for my shoes

#180

This is relevant to today's events because Magnus Carlsen just withdrew from a tournament[1] after yesterday's loss to a significantly lower rated opponent who had previously been suspended for cheating on chess.com. The tournament organizers have also implemented additional anti-cheating protocols starting today. Whatever comes out of these accusations, the chess world will sure enjoy its new infusion of drama. [1]…

I know very little about chess. Do computers play like top humans? Or different stylistically? ie - if you were a top player and looking at the moves of an opponent, could you discern if the style was more similar to a top rated human or a top rated computer?

The top chess engine was ELO rated at 3546 in 2021. The top rated player ever was Magnus at 2882. To put that ELO difference in context, even if Magnus gets the first move, the chess engine is expected to win 0.979934616 of the time. Within that gap, there are many moves that can be played that are superior to human moves by varying degrees.

It would be very hard to detect a sophisticated cheater solely by examining their moves in a vacuum. They could pick moves that appear to be "human" e.g. moves that appear to be chosen based on the common heuristics that strong human players tend to rely upon, rather than moves based on very deep brute force calculations, where we could never match the strongest chess engines.

The giveaway is usually in the time required for each move. Humans will tend to spend varying amounts of time on each move, with significantly more time spent at critical moments in a game. A computer will pretty much spend the same amount of time for each move. But even here, a sophisticated cheater could disguise this side effect by only using computer assistance at critical moments.

[1] https://wismuth.com/elo/calculator.html#rating1=3546&rating2...

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