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Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

insideevs.com

171–180 of 267 posts

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#171
post #131

Hyundai, Kia, and Audi EVs have paddle shifters which controls the level of regeneration braking and feels very much like downshifting. One paddle (+) steps up the regen to the point where the “drag” gets progressively stronger. The other paddle (-) steps down regen to 0 where the car can coast and there is no regen drag whatsoever. Note this is not the same as Neutral. The car is always in Drive. The function only a…

Is it coincidence that so many designs first seen in Audi seem to show up in Hyundia/Kia at a short delay?

The first vehicle with a regen steering wheel paddle was the 2014 Cadillac ELR, followed by the Chevy Volt and Chevy Bolt in 2016.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it might be a good trade-off to pair a motor with a peaky torque curve with a 2-speed or 3-speed gearbox. But if your _only_ goal is to limit torque, you could simulate that by re-mapping the pedal. Say, by hitting "Eco" mode on a Prius.

My comment is more about why torque should be limitable, not a critique on electric cars.

Most cars have traction control AFAIK. Instead of limiting max torque, they notice when it's spinning the wheels.

Same in reverse for breaks and abs.

On my car you can turn it off if you want some fun on dirt tracks.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric motors don’t need manual (or indeed, any) transmissions because they have a basically-flat torque curve across their entire RPM range. The only options for an electric motor are fake transmission or no transmission, and the parent is arguing for the latter and against “transmission cosplay”. A real manual transmission on an electric car would have no point.

Electric motors draw more current when starting up and when delivering high torque. It's conceivable that with a transmission, maximum current draw could be lowered, perhaps leading to longer-lived batteries or lower demand for battery cooling, smaller gauge wiring, smaller motors, or other cost savings. Don't know for sure on any of this, but it seems plausible. On the other hand, if it really made a difference, why…

A more complicated gearbox means more friction which lowers the fuel efficiency of the vehicle. Since the battery is the most expensive part of a BEV, maximizing fuel efficiency is always a priority. It determines the cost and the range for the car.

EVs with multiple gear ratios do exist though, the first of which was the 2020 Porsche Taycan. The first gear lets it maximize torque at low speeds (up to 62 MPH) so it can set 0-60 records, then the second gear lets it maintain a more economical motor speed for highway driving.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#174
As a driver of a manual Miata older than I am, I was somewhat pleasantly surprised by this idea. I find this similar to the Fujifilm line of digital cameras with analog-style exposure dials and optical viewfinders; the affordances are objectively worse and largely unnecessary compared to the PASM mode selectors found in almost every other line of camera today, but they make all the difference between the feel of shooting a computer with a lens versus a proper dedicated camera.

I'm glad someone is trying to save the manual transmission baby from the ICE bathwater.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#175
post #131

Hyundai, Kia, and Audi EVs have paddle shifters which controls the level of regeneration braking and feels very much like downshifting. One paddle (+) steps up the regen to the point where the “drag” gets progressively stronger. The other paddle (-) steps down regen to 0 where the car can coast and there is no regen drag whatsoever. Note this is not the same as Neutral. The car is always in Drive. The function only a…

> Tesla’s power and torque band is already covering high and low speeds with one gear, although an additional top gear would probably get them to a really insane top speed.

Tesla tried that in their original Roadster. It had a two-speed transmission. The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. It was easier to fix the problem on the electric side than the gear side.

There's something to be said for a paddle shifter, but mostly for better control at low speed. For parking and off-road use, it can be helpful to map more pedal angle to a range of low speeds. This is more like the high/low range lever found on off-road vehicles and tractors than like a stick shift.

Mode switches are undesirable because they lead to "wrong mode" accidents. This is an ongoing problem with aircraft automation.

Behavior with zero accelerator and brake is an interesting question. Should the vehicle creep slowly forward? That's a classic feature, or bug, of automatic transmissions. Some automatic transmissions had anti-creep mechanisms to prevent this. If the vehicle comes to a full stop, should releasing the brake initiate creep? Should the vehicle roll back if on a hill? Some cars have "hill holders" to prevent that. For an electric car, those are all design decisions - the power train has no inherent behavior.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why should manual transmissions be limited to only petroleum powered engine? Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Electric motors don’t need manual (or indeed, any) transmissions because they have a basically-flat torque curve across their entire RPM range. The only options for an electric motor are fake transmission or no transmission, and the parent is arguing for the latter and against “transmission cosplay”. A real manual transmission on an electric car would have no point.

Torque isn't the only consideration, there's also efficiency and acceleration. Transmission aren't a necessity like they are in ICE cars, but they can improve the experience.

For instance the Porsche Taycan:

"Having a multispeed transmission in an EV provides the same benefits that it does in a gasoline-powered car: improved low-speed acceleration and increased efficiency at high velocity by lowering the rotating speed of the power source."

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a28903274/porsche-taycan-t...

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I have fanatical Tesla fanboy friends in Denver Colorado who don't drive their teslas much in winter because they handle poorly in the snow on steep inclines and declines. The door lock issues and cold weather battery energy life and charging issues were their other problems

The RWD is a bit of a different beast than the AWD. It's much easier to get stuck on that one due to its weight when reversing up a hill.

ah that explains it, thanks!

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#178
post #17

No worse than Subaru's ICE CVT with fake shift points?

I don't even notice the stepped shifting when I drive my Soobie. In fact I wondered why it worked that way, and assumed it had something to do with minimizing wear and tear on the shift mechanism. It's the closest thing to "get in and drive" of any car I've had. I especially love the adaptive cruise control.

Yes. I also think it works great including the lane change warnings. It is maddening that there is no way to prevent the radio from turning on every time the car does, though.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#179
post #99

This is a neat example though of how arbitrary EV drivetrains are. A Toyota marketing exec's (just guessing) FUD about imagined consumer FUD turns into, why don't we just ramp down torque in notches in relation to road speed increments? Of course anyone who buys this is going to try it once then leave it in all-the-torque-all-the-time mode, but that's not the point. I can't say I've met a single three pedal afficiona…

I am absolutely a manual gearbox fan for driving experience, and that's in Aus where it's not really idolized like it is in America. A lot more manuals here. But you are dead right. I think because it lacks all of the mechanical apparatus anyway, it's not like driving a regular car in automatic, it's like driving a different kind of vehicle. So you don't miss the gearbox. All that said, I do appreciate the tendency f…

It's not idolization it's identification. Americans have a tendency to identify with what they like. You don't just like surfing, you're a surfer. This leads to odd statements like, "I drive a manual, but I'm not a manual driver or anything." After my fellow American identifies with something, then its obvious superiority comes next. It's a complex. See our current political environment for extreme examples.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#180
post #131

Hyundai, Kia, and Audi EVs have paddle shifters which controls the level of regeneration braking and feels very much like downshifting. One paddle (+) steps up the regen to the point where the “drag” gets progressively stronger. The other paddle (-) steps down regen to 0 where the car can coast and there is no regen drag whatsoever. Note this is not the same as Neutral. The car is always in Drive. The function only a…

> Tesla’s power and torque band is already covering high and low speeds with one gear, although an additional top gear would probably get them to a really insane top speed. Tesla tried that in their original Roadster. It had a two-speed transmission. The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. I…

Wrong mode accidents don’t need to happen. My Prius has three modes for acceleration curves: Eco, Normal, and Power. If you push the pedal down all the way, you get full power in any mode.

Note: power mode does not increase power, it just waits longer to turn off the ICE in order to improve throttle response

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