Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#171

Post by SllX » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 4:37 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #51

BudaDude wrote: post #33

This should honestly be picked up by a larger news organization. If the US is serious about protecting Taiwan and bringing more chips to the US, Apple should be shamed for choosing Chinese profits. Imagine if Apple told Ukraine employees to label Russia on their badges.

Well, an alternative interpretation would be that Apple (like much of the world) is in a no-win situation because an assumption that they had (like much of the world) was that investment, fair trade, and bringing China into the established international organizations would result in liberalization (within reason) of China and that they'd be a full partner in global stability. The grand bargain. But instead the CCP re…

In other words: arc of history nonsense. What should have been clear and is clear if you think about human nature for two seconds or that CCP interests do not represent Chinese interests.

Why?

Because it’s a single-party dictatorship and because the interests of the State are subordinate to the interests of the people who control the State. That’s true in America too, which is why we have elections and transfers of power, and though our elections are fair and free by a reasonable metric, the deck is still stacked in favor of those who already have power. The PRC has nothing resembling the peaceful transfer of power and therefore the only means of transferring power within the PRC as it is constituted today are less than peaceful.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#172

Post by ngcc_hk » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 4:37 PM UTC

Taiwan one day has to be strong enough just continue to label Taiwan. Tbh if labelled as china does it subject to china embargo, tax, …

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#173

Post by sneak » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 4:38 PM UTC

squarefoot wrote: post #149

sneak wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% of Apple's important chips depend on Taiwan continuing to be Taiwan (and TSMC continuing to be TSMC). ~100% of Apple's manufacturing depends on China continuing to permit hundreds of thousands of Chinese nationals in Chinese factories (Foxconn's plants in Zhengzhou and elsewhere) building Apple products. I'm not sure what you mean by "knuckle under" in this context, but Apple is, today, wholly dependent upon Tai…

To me the only left long term solution is to move as much technology and specialized workforce out of China to rebuild chip farms in different countries. I understand it's a very long and costly process, but also the mere starting it could work as a leverage.

Another solution is simply "don't have a war with your trading partners".

What we have today is working fine.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#174

Post by Ygg2 » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 4:39 PM UTC

daniel-thompson wrote: post #114

bodski wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But instead the CCP rejected that and undermined global good will Can you elaborate on this? This feels a very US centric view. The US itself has repeatedly failed to comply with its own 'rules-based order', whilst expecting other powers to comply.

Textbook example of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

I think it's textbook definition of Duplicity.

Rules for thee and not for me.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#175

Post by eevilspock » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 4:41 PM UTC

BudaDude wrote: post #33

This should honestly be picked up by a larger news organization. If the US is serious about protecting Taiwan and bringing more chips to the US, Apple should be shamed for choosing Chinese profits. Imagine if Apple told Ukraine employees to label Russia on their badges.

A lot of people here making comments without knowing anything about the 70 year-old issue of the definition of "China", as well as the "one country" philosophy that both Taiwan and Mainland China adhere to officially.[1][2][3]

I'm not Chinese but I did lived in Taiwan for 6 years and was married to a Chinese woman who's father escaped to Taiwan from China after the Nationalists lost the civil war and fled to Taiwan.

Apple's policy is exactly in line with Taiwan's own official policy.

To be sure, there is official policy and there is actual sentiment on the ground. "Made in Taiwan" reflects the Taiwan populace's growing desire to distinguish itself from China, as well as reflect the de facto reality.[4][5]

But if Taiwan itself as a country is unwilling to change their official policy, be it because they still cling to the "One China" notion, or because they are afraid of pissing off China, why is everyone here demanding that Apple do something that Taiwan is itself unwilling to do? Why should they, as an American company, push any particular angle, especially when there is position they can take that is compatible with the policies of both Taiwan and China?

If you are arguing for a world that pushes values over profit and other self-serving things, I'd give you a hug and then tell you there are far more important stands to take, including a serious and honest analysis of capitalism. Are all the people dissing Apple on this issue also willing to diss Apple for the exploitation of cheap labor in Asia all while growing to have the greatest market cap in the whole world? If you are not then I don't think you have much of a leg to stand on.

---

[1] Note the words at the top of the government's home page: "Government Portal of the Republic of China (Taiwan)" www.taiwan.gov.tw

[2] See Taiwan's own constitution, even after modern amendments, continues to hold that China is one country. https://english.president.gov.tw/Page/93

Note that the constitution also claims Mongolia and Tibet as part of the Republic of China. Even Mainland China doesn't claim Mongolia.

The amendments adopted afterwards have not rescinded the idea of One China implied by the original: https://english.president.gov.tw/Page/95

They now use the phrase "free area of the Republic of China" and specifically say, "Rights and obligations between the people of the Chinese mainland area and those of the free area, and the disposition of other related affairs may be specified by law."

[3] See this comment on this same thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32358180

[4] There is a good Wikipedia article on the issue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan

[5] An ongoing debate within Taiwan about changing the constitution: https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2021/05...

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#176

Post by kshacker » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 4:41 PM UTC

vladvasiliu wrote: post #42

kshacker wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As part of free speech, can a company from somewhere in south send out parts in boxes with confederate flag on the box? We make decisions to curtail free speech everyday so how's this different?

I'm not American, so I may be missing some details, but is that actually not allowed? Or is it rather the case that some people may not like that, so companies try to avoid upsetting some customers?

As others said, it may be allowed, and I did not know either ways but it was a rhetorical point.

Now even if it is allowed, suppose this was a Federal government procurement. Will Feds buy something with such flags? Nope. Once that happens, it can be easily demagogued.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#177

Post by joenot443 » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 4:41 PM UTC

mmis1000 wrote: post #169

NhanH wrote: post #143

Officially, Taiwan agree to the “One China” stance. They even agree in the 1992 consensus that RoC and PRC does not agree who is the legitimate government of both mainland China and Taiwan islands, but the One China stance itself is not something in dispute. The constitution of Taiwan claims sovereignty over mainland China, although they added an amendment to differentiate “free area” citizens (Taiwanese) and citizen…

> is invading if Taiwan abandon the stance. That is never the truth. They threat for armed attack like since forever 'everyday'. To the point people here just outright ignore their claim and do their daily work. If somebody even be serious about that. Then they would need live in the air-raid shelter everyday. But who would do that? > similar to a civil war Hell no, in my 30 years of live, I have nothing to do with P…

Thanks for chiming in! Always great to hear perspectives from people actually living in the places being discussed.

If you had to guess, where do you expect TW/CH relations to be in 50 years? Do you still expect there to be disagreement between the two governments on respective borders and sovereignty or will they someday reach a fully amicable agreement?

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#178

Post by baybal2 » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 4:43 PM UTC

JackFr wrote: post #125

the_duke wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternative view: Apple has spent many years happily profiting from cheap Chinese manufacturing, labor, electrial engineering expertise and supply chains to the point where they are now completely beholden to a foreign country. A country whose increasing rivalry with the US in economic power and geopolitical influence (along with increased tensions) has been clear for well over a decade. Apple is diversifying a bit i…

> but China could throw Apple into a huge crisis tomorrow if they were cut off, since it would take years to ramp up capacity elsewhere. Would not be painless for China though. The thing about trade is, it’s trade. While Apple and American consumers benefit, so does China or obviously they wouldn’t trade. They’re not making our phones as a charity to us.

No post body was provided.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#179

Post by eating555 » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 4:43 PM UTC

NhanH wrote: post #143

Officially, Taiwan agree to the “One China” stance. They even agree in the 1992 consensus that RoC and PRC does not agree who is the legitimate government of both mainland China and Taiwan islands, but the One China stance itself is not something in dispute. The constitution of Taiwan claims sovereignty over mainland China, although they added an amendment to differentiate “free area” citizens (Taiwanese) and citizen…

Current government doesn't agree on the 1992 consensus. The agreement on "One China" doesn't exist.

Discalaimer: I live here.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#180

Post by powerhour » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 4:43 PM UTC

smoldesu wrote: post #145

judge2020 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the situation for the rest of the chip industry besides Intel, who also uses Taiwan TSMC fabs for some of their side operations (see Arc GPUs). Not just computer chips either, 37% of U.S. clothing imports are from China[0], for example. 0: https://www.just-style.com/analysis/analysis-china-market-sh...

So... we're in agreement that over-reliance on China is a bad thing, then?

I think so. I think the disagreement is in how to deal with the problem. Obviously tariffs are a terrible idea (if you think about it for more than a couple minutes). Alternatives like mandating exporters meet environmental and employment standards that meet or exceed ours would probably make a good sized dent.