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Part of my code makes Copilot crash

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Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#171

I hope to god that one day we will all see this nonsense for what it is: absurdly hilarious.

I don't really find it that funny. I don't think the correct response to everyone being upset by this (from many different angles) is to stand back from it and laugh at it.

Some people feel that wokeness is ruining the world. I can't really speak to that position because my political initialization was on the other side of the cultural gulf in America.

The way I have come to understand transgender issues is very much shaped by the political left, but also by a religious upbringing (Catholic, Jesuit). On the left, I am told that this is a human rights issue. I am inclined to believe that transgender people have a hard time in life. I am also inclined to believe that it is not a mental disorder, and I came to these conclusions through conversations with transgender people I have worked with in the past, as well as through what I learned in my psychology classes in high school and college.

I am a white male who was born that way, but I definitely know what it feels like to be ridiculed, to not belong and to feel that there is no right place for me in this world. I have been abused, made to feel small, ostracized and bullied. Those experiences have given me a pretty deep understanding of what suffering is, and how it can be caused. It has also softened me and made me pretty empathetic to others who feel they don't belong in this world.

As an example, I was once at a comedy show where a comedian made a transgender-adjacent joke. The humor of the joke was all in a stupid pun, and I thought it was pretty funny because I like stupid puns. But there was a transgender woman in the audience who got immediately angry. I don't remember exactly what she said, but it was something along the lines of "That's not funny, I'm sick of people like you shouting at me in the street!!". If I had to go though my life having people shouting at me in the streets of NYC because of how I looked vs how other people thought I should look, I may have responded in the same way. I thought the joke was funny, but for her it touched on some deeply painful memories of abuse, dragged them to the surface, and activated a lightning-quick temper. Perhaps if I'd been abused for as long as she, and in the same way, I wouldn't have thought the joke was funny either.

I understand people don't like being corrected, or told that they're wrong or that they're hateful. I don't think that is a productive way to bring about change; and yet, I have found myself picking fights with my parents, and getting generally nasty when they have failed to understand some value I have learned that I did not learn from them. That is obviously a bad thing, because the message they come away with is "what a jerk!" or "those damn lefties!". What I'd rather have people come away with after they hear me speak is something quite different. It was only after raging at my parents enough times that I decided I just wouldn't talk to my parents about politics. There is more right about my parents than there is wrong about them; they are getting older and their bodies will decline until they die. Most likely it will happen to them before it happens to me, at a time when I am able in body and mind, so I intend (even though I sometimes fail) to spend the rest of our time together as peacefully as possible.

I offer this earnestly in good faith. Sometimes the message gets muddied in the delivery, or because I get upset when I perceive (or sometimes, misperceive) that someone is being uncaring for those who are already suffering enough. I think I react that way because of my own history of abuse.

I am also open to hearing the other side of this story. I have attempted not to misrepresent $OTHER_SIDE's view of things. I am only speaking to why I have such strong feelings about this issue. I am sure others have equally strong feelings on another side, and I am open to hearing what that sounds like, provided the viewpoint is offered with respect.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#172
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They refer to it as “eliminating bias”, I don't think, e.g. being able to handle black faces correctly is some sort of massive ideological commitment. So let's not pretend that the entire concern of bias in AI is irrelevant, no matter where you stand on gender. > conformance with one very specific set of ideological commitments You know-- let's just talk about basic respect and dignity: if someone strongly wants to…

I call complete and utter BS. This is in no way different than disabling a word procesors autocorrect when a writer uses the term gender in their novel. The programmer should be able to use whatever the hell terms they want to use in their program. If the customer base doesn't like it that's their right. But it's not the right of the damn language parser programmer.

> autocorrect

> The programmer should be able to use whatever the hell terms they want

> language parser

Are you unsure what copilot is?

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#173
post #70

So large language model are great on but have undesirable result occasionally. Hand coded scripts are added to remove the undesirable outcomes but still produce other problems - crashed but less often. More and more things are going to be filtered through large language model apps and the possibilities for cascading failures will be even more interesting than what exists presently.

The large language models already know too much. I was able to get GPT-3 to spit out reasonably accurate biographies for a couple of composers I know. GPT-3 could go even further — one of my composer friends has a reasonably rare first name, and when given the prompt "There once was a man named $first_name", GPT-3 responded with a number of limericks tailored to his particular set of skills.

  There once was a man named $first_name,
  Who never accepted the blame.
    He went on a bender,
    And talked about gender
  [INFO] [default] [2022-07-10T07:59:07.641Z] [fetchCompletions] engine https://copilot-proxy.githubusercontent.com/v1/engines/copilot-codex

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#174
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a zealous push by a small but extremely vocal fringe to impose their very particular worldview onto emerging AI/ML models like this. They refer to it as “eliminating bias”, but it’s really just an attempt to mold these new technologies into conformance with one very specific set of ideological commitments. Proponents view it as some kind of obvious universal good, and are confused when anyone else is appalled…

> They refer to it as “eliminating bias”, I don't think, e.g. being able to handle black faces correctly is some sort of massive ideological commitment. So let's not pretend that the entire concern of bias in AI is irrelevant, no matter where you stand on gender. > conformance with one very specific set of ideological commitments You know-- let's just talk about basic respect and dignity: if someone strongly wants to…

> if someone strongly wants to be referred to in a particular way, the polite response is to respect their wishes

Would you also respect the wishes of a schizophrenic person, if they say much the same thing? If they say that they are actually an alien from outer space, would you play along?

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#175
post #122

So I've just tested it, and I can confirm, yes, copilot refuses to give suggestions related to gender. Now I know a lot of people are calling this absurd, but looking more closely, there are two PR nightmare scenarios. 1. Copilot makes a suggestion that implies gender is binary, a certain community explodes with anger and an entire news hype cycle starts about how Microsoft is enforcing views on gender with code. 2.…

Pick 95% of your users, not a hard choice.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#176
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s interesting how unsubstantiated allegations are getting so much attention, especially on a site with such high quality discussion.

It looks like several commenters have been able to reproduce the problem, so in that sense I guess it's substantiated? If people were trying to reproduce it and failing, I agree with you that would be a different story.

The allegation is the root cause, not the problem itself.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#177
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is Github worried about? That Copilot might suggest some code that checks for a "gender" variable being only one of two values? Perhaps Github is worried about a backlash if it suggests code that allows for more than 2 values.

The backlash they ought to be worried about is the one from their customers when it refuses to operate due to an ongoing battle between opposing groups of extremists.

That seems a pretty simple one to manage—a disclaimer stating "Copilot will not generate code referencing certain topics" seems both sufficient and uncontroversial.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#178
post #156

Someone changed the title from Copilot crash because the word “gender” to Part of my code makes Copilot crash

I changed it because of HN's rule on titles: " Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize. " https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Sorry, I didn't notice the guidelines. Thank you.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#179

That's silly. So can I put "gender" as the first line in my code to stop copilot from ingesting it altogether? Are there any other break-words? Master, slave, Carlin's seven words, etc?

> So can I put "gender" as the first line in my code to stop copilot from ingesting it altogether

This means one solution for those worried about copilot laundering around code licenses is to put a statement like "for more details check the man page" at the end of each docstring.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#180
post #40

Can we get a source for that? Because at the moment, it's just a comment made by a person on the internet with nothing backing it up...

I added "gender" (an IANA registered JWT claim) to my JWT payload schema and found Copilot will not provide any suggestions after that. Not on the same line, nor in the rest of the file. After removing the word gender entirely, it works again. https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml

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