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In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

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Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#171

Post by TameAntelope »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #167
TameAntelope wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you think the source of the racial discrimination is college admissions and not centuries of violence and hatred is sad, but unsurprising. You are not immune to history, what happened before you were born does matter, and it effects/hurts people all the time. Affirmative Actions is just one way we can try and figure out how to heal that immense damage. It's not the only thing we can do, but it is someth…

> the source of the racial discrimination is college admissions and not centuries of violence and hatred is sad They're both acts of prejudice on the basis of race. There's a view that there is some dimension of racism where racism in "one" direction can be negated by racism in the "other" direction. But this relies on a stable concept of race across time and space, which doesn't exist, because people mix and move an…

You're not bearing any burden, as there are a lot of schools who aren't Yale that will accept you. This isn't the case for those who are benefiting from Affirmative Action.

For some, Yale is their only shot, due to the inherently racist nature of American society. Those people should get priority over people for whom this isn't the case.

If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at the racists in American society that make these programs necessary. If it weren't for the objective fact that many minority groups in the US suffer on nearly every level when compared to others, these programs wouldn't be needed, but they do so they are.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#172

Post by _-david-_ »

rac1smb4D wrote: post #121
_-david-_ wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is more diverse: 1. Admiting a black boy who is living with both parents and who have a net worth of over $100 million 2. Admitting a white boy who grew up in poverty in Appalachia and lived in a single parent household

Black Boy, but who's more deserving on same score? The white boy

Mind explaining why the black boy is more diverse? Is race the only thing that makes somebody diverse?

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#173

Post by zmgsabst »

TameAntelope wrote: post #70
fareesh wrote: post #60

How can it be known with certainty that a group will be diverse, and thus have the benefits of diversity, simply by using race as a datapoint? Is every individual of a particular race innately imbued with some magical ability or perspective? What if you have a Chinese father and a Russian mother and you grew up in Kenya?

Quoted post unavailable.

No post body was provided.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#174

Post by HelloMcFly »

samatman wrote: post #86
btilly wrote: post #33

To quote from the brief. Unlike applicants whose identities have been affected mainly by their socioeconomic or geographic circumstances, applicants whose formative experiences relate to race or ethnicity would be denied the opportunity to convey their full, authentic selves when competing for admission to selective schools like Amici. And so we guarantee that millions of Americans will have a formative experience th…

It's not Asians primarily. They are discriminated against more stiffly, but are far outnumbered in the US by Whites, who also get the thumb placed on the wrong pan of the scale. The focus on Asians is because of a doctrine that discriminating against Whites is very good and correct, because they deserve it.

> a doctrine that discriminating against Whites is very good and correct, because they deserve it.

This is an argument put forth in bad faith. The thought - agree or disagree - is white individuals in America have systemic advantages that persist due to historical social practices the manifest across many years of education and just existence in life in America. It's not about "deserving less" but about acknowledging they nudges in their favor many had along the way.

I'm not going to debate the veracity of that thought on a forum, but it's not some sort of punitive belief.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#175

Post by JumpCrisscross »

TameAntelope wrote: post #171
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the source of the racial discrimination is college admissions and not centuries of violence and hatred is sad They're both acts of prejudice on the basis of race. There's a view that there is some dimension of racism where racism in "one" direction can be negated by racism in the "other" direction. But this relies on a stable concept of race across time and space, which doesn't exist, because people mix and move an…

You're not bearing any burden, as there are a lot of schools who aren't Yale that will accept you. This isn't the case for those who are benefiting from Affirmative Action. For some, Yale is their only shot, due to the inherently racist nature of American society. Those people should get priority over people for whom this isn't the case. If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at the racists in American society that…

> not bearing any burden, as there are a lot of schools who aren't Yale that will accept you. This isn't the case for those who are benefiting from Affirmative Action.

I went to a state school on a merit scholarship, so I'm pretty far outside direct impact from these decisions.

If someone thinks their only chance of going to college is Yale, they're wrong. Fixing that lack of institutional knowledge makes more sense than twisting the scales to fit a race-based ideology. (To the degree I bear indirect burden, it's in living in a society that seeks to create a racial hierarchy. Also, being young enough that the obviously predictable backlash will be a problem in my lifetime.)

We have a legacy of wrongs against Black Americans. It's on all of us, including those who didn't commit the atrocities but benefit from the system built on them, to address that. Creating racial pools in college admissions is not the way.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#176

Post by notch656a »

TameAntelope wrote: post #109
Rebelgecko wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>as for it to be racist you would have to believe that people of a certain race are inherently superior in some form or another. I don't think that's the standard definition, I think treating people differently because of their race is usually considered racist, even if the discrimination is of the "separate but equal" variety. Especially if the difference in treatment is due to stereotypes and prejudices.

Quoted post unavailable.

>People want different treatment as a result of their different values and life experiences that they gather from their cultures

Yes exactly. A white kid adopted by someone in a village in Kenya isn't going to want to be treated like an Englishman, and a black kid who grew up his whole life in a Montana country town full of white people with white parents (probably) doesn't want to be treated differently than the rest of the people in the town even though he's an entirely different color. "Colorblind" is a good policy in these circumstances.

If someone wants to be treated differently purely on their color I will wait for them to tell me (individually tell me, not someone else of the same color to tell me) and presume not otherwise.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#177

Post by nailer »

aceHN wrote: post #48

If your goal is equal opportunity you can look at socioeconomic class without considering race. Fundamentally the idea that race must be considered to achieve diversity is an inherently racist idea - you don't believe some races will get in without help.

Yep. A middle class black American doesn't deserve a handout more than a working class Ukrainian kid with cleaners for parents.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#178

Post by TameAntelope »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #175
TameAntelope wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not bearing any burden, as there are a lot of schools who aren't Yale that will accept you. This isn't the case for those who are benefiting from Affirmative Action. For some, Yale is their only shot, due to the inherently racist nature of American society. Those people should get priority over people for whom this isn't the case. If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at the racists in American society that…

> not bearing any burden, as there are a lot of schools who aren't Yale that will accept you. This isn't the case for those who are benefiting from Affirmative Action. I went to a state school on a merit scholarship, so I'm pretty far outside direct impact from these decisions. If someone thinks their only chance of going to college is Yale, they're wrong. Fixing that lack of institutional knowledge makes more sense…

> If someone thinks their only chance of going to college is Yale, they're wrong.

They're not wrong, that's literally the lived experience of many, many folks. This is exactly the problem; you're not taking the perspective of people who actually are discriminated against in America.

And I didn't say "of going to college". This isn't just about college, it's about opportunities for a high degree of success in a person's life. Yale doesn't represent "college" it represents "prestigious college that will open doors for the rest of their life".

Some folks get one of those shots. Yale doesn't represent that to you, but it represents that to some folks, and if they're qualified for admittance, it makes perfect sense to prefer them over people who will get other shots at a highly successful life.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#179

Post by colinmhayes »

samatman wrote: post #107
colinmhayes wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? While Asian immigrants certainly face discrimination they have also certainly experienced much less than black Americans have over the last 300 years.

The problem is that it's inherently wrong, which I don't expect you to understand given your twisted moral compass. Perhaps it would help you if you knew that ADOS are pretty upset that Yale keeps admitting the sons and daughters of wealthy African immigrants instead of them. That doesn't make a difference to a morally upright person. But for a racist such as yourself, maybe know that the policy of racism you're advo…

Admitting rich people is basically the biggest value add ivy’s provide. Ambitious people realize that having a network full of the rich and soon to be powerful is incredibly valuable which is why they want to be in school with them. Given that ivy’s will be admitting large amounts of rich people either way how is it worse to accept some rich minorities instead of just rich white people?

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#180

Post by ekam »

xiande04 wrote: post #142
TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but it leads to absurd results, where the black daughter of two doctors, with 500K+ in annual family income is given preferential treatment, while the Chinese-American son of a janitor is discriminated against.

Do you have any proof of that being the case? If the Chinese son makes it clear to the admission team about the hardships he overcame, surely that would be to his advantage. Completely anecdotally, but I had two Asian colleagues from poor households. One got a full ride to Harvard and the other to MIT. Whereas, the smartest person I've ever personally known was accepted to Harvard but not given any financial aid. He…

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29964/w299...
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