Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Russian gas flows to Europe

berthub.eu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 279 posts

Re: Russian gas flows to Europe

#171

Post by heavenlyblue »

chasd00 wrote: post #104
severino wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And who do we buy oil/gas from? Venezuela? Iran? Saudi Arabia? United States? I don't see a reason why those countries are better than Russia.

Unfortunately it doesn’t even matter. The infrastructure simply doesn’t exist and takes many months to build. Germany could choose to buy from anywhere but it doesn’t matter, there’s no way to get the gas to where it’s needed in time for winter.

Well unfortunately Germany doesn’t have a leader strong enough to announce a military regime and ration the heating in the country.

Re: Russian gas flows to Europe

#172

Post by dreig »

_xnmw wrote: post #158
dreig wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Afghanistan was on the border of USSR. Why was that a proxy war and this one isn't?

USSR is not Russia. Afghanistan was a not a "core interest" or existential threat to any of the USSR nations. If we use the Afghanistan analogy, Ukraine is on the border of NATO too. Interestingly, then NATO would be the overextended multinational entity trying to expand even further in this scenario. If we expect an "Afghanistan" scenario to repeat itself, then logically one would expect NATO to collapse.

I was not saying that USSR is Russia.

In earlier comment you said: "Vietnam and Afghanistan .... Those were pure proxy wars. This is not a proxy war, it is a direct hot war." And here you wrote: "This is not a proxy war. Russia is involved directly on its border. A proxy war is in a far off land." And I was saying that Afghanistan was not a far off land, it was on the border, so your two usages of "proxy war" weren't consistent.

Sorry, I don't understand your second paragraph, I was not trying to draw an analogy with USSR and Afghanistan.

As I understand, your argument is instead that: "Afghanistan was not important to USSR, so USSR did not consider using nuclear weapons then", while "Ukraine is a core interest of Russia, so it will rather start a nuclear war (and risk destruction of the world) rather than back down and return to the positions before Feb 24th." I don't know if this statement is as obviously correct as it may seem to you. Certainly many believe that Russia is not willing to self-destruct to stand the ground here.

Re: Russian gas flows to Europe

#173

Post by avar »

jhgb wrote: post #110
towaway15463 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It very much matters over the timespan of several decades. That is enough time in which many more nuclear power plants could have been brought online. Just because Germany made the gross error of not building out enough nuclear power to provide for their needs doesn’t mean it is impossible.

No, it doesn't. The nuclear plants were never a substitute for residential gas heaters and the chemical industry consuming copious amounts of natural gas. Any shortfall from the nuclear shutdown can be covered by the underutilized coal plants. It's temporarily inconvenient but doesn't necessitate gas imports in any way.

> nuclear plants were never a substitute for residential gas heaters[...]

Yes they were, France uses around 40% electrical heating[1], Germany around 5%. Norway is almost entirely electrically heated.

1. From some quick online searching.

Re: Russian gas flows to Europe

#174

Post by konschubert »

severino wrote: post #13
shmerl wrote: post #7

How fast did the rest of Europe cut ties with Nazi Germany after World War II started? Current level of feeding Russia's war machine looks bizarre.

Didn't know WWIII already started. If you meant stopping doing businesses with a country that invades another, I'm sorry to tell you that there are not enough "non-invading" countries that can sell all the resources that we in the EU need now.

This is factually wrong.

Re: Russian gas flows to Europe

#175

Post by rasz »

vfclists wrote: post #165
rasz wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you, Now I get it. Its the US bullying that was the cause for Ukraine invasion! This and Germany.

Look up the term realpolitik. The US invaded Grenada and Panama when the regimes there threatened her interests and changed them. Why do you think that is a privilege reserved only for the US? If you don't want to accept that sanctions imposed on Russia prior to this ware are a form of warfare you can't be helped. That is the thrust of my argument. Putin understands very well, and simply said F those b*ches I am goin…

'Sanctions imposed on Russia prior to this war' were a direct answer to 2014 Crimea invasion. You are repeating 'US made me do it' bullshit rhetorics, invalidated by putin himself when he got honest for once

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/russia-ukraine-war-put...

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/putin-adm...

Re: Russian gas flows to Europe

#176

Post by konschubert »

severino wrote: post #69
cersa8 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it deeply concerning we are still very much in bed with Putin. We should have taken drastic steps early and maybe be half way in tapping alternative sources. The fact Germany is happily closing nuclear power plants shows Europe is in for a rude awakening when Putin tightens the vice.

And who do we buy oil/gas from? Venezuela? Iran? Saudi Arabia? United States? I don't see a reason why those countries are better than Russia.

None of these countries are actively trying to erase another country from the map right now.

The US is a democratic country so far, Russia is not.

It’s incredibly childish, stupid and dangerous to pretend that these countries are all equally evil.

Re: Russian gas flows to Europe

#177

Post by shmerl »

vfclists wrote: post #146
shmerl wrote: post #7

How fast did the rest of Europe cut ties with Nazi Germany after World War II started? Current level of feeding Russia's war machine looks bizarre.

Quoted post unavailable.

Let's be clear - those who support Putin today are fascist sympathizers and no amount of demagoguery is going to change that.

What I'm surprised about are such pro-fascist comments here on HN. But good thing is that today it's becoming more and more clear to most, including in Europe. There will be no more sitting on two chairs for those who support Putin's fascism.

Re: Russian gas flows to Europe

#178

Post by jhgb »

avar wrote: post #173
jhgb wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it doesn't. The nuclear plants were never a substitute for residential gas heaters and the chemical industry consuming copious amounts of natural gas. Any shortfall from the nuclear shutdown can be covered by the underutilized coal plants. It's temporarily inconvenient but doesn't necessitate gas imports in any way.

> nuclear plants were never a substitute for residential gas heaters[...] Yes they were, France uses around 40% electrical heating[1], Germany around 5%. Norway is almost entirely electrically heated. 1. From some quick online searching.

Uh...are we still talking about Germany? Because in Germany they clearly weren't, unlike in case of France. And Norway's absolutely prodigious consumption of electricity (quadruple amount per capita) even underlines it: electrical heating is absolutely not the way to go forward -- efficient building codes are.

Re: Russian gas flows to Europe

#179

Post by avar »

jhgb wrote: post #178
avar wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nuclear plants were never a substitute for residential gas heaters[...] Yes they were, France uses around 40% electrical heating[1], Germany around 5%. Norway is almost entirely electrically heated. 1. From some quick online searching.

Uh...are we still talking about Germany? Because in Germany they clearly weren't, unlike in case of France. And Norway's absolutely prodigious consumption of electricity (quadruple amount per capita) even underlines it: electrical heating is absolutely not the way to go forward -- efficient building codes are.

They weren't because of Germany's energy policy, not because nuclear is a bad fit for residential heating. We're talking about "[nuclear on] the timespan of several decades".

Re: Russian gas flows to Europe

#180

Post by fulvioterzapi »

jhgb wrote: post #131
fulvioterzapi wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Contracts have been terminated, replacement parts with long lead times haven't been ordered, maintenance windows have been shifted in anticipation of the shutdown. Sounds like a long list of lame excuses.

"Excuses"? If you know that your company shuts down one year from now, why would you be ordering spare parts for five years into the future? Especially if you've known that date for twenty years like Germans did?

Sure, sure, but I find difficult to believe that an industrial superpower such as Germany can't find a solution in a couple of months.

The the usual politicians' way of speaking. If there was the political will of having the nuclear power plants works, they would go and find the spare parts in a second. There's no political will (thank you Greens!) so they make up excuses.

Post reply on HN