I tried out Xtend, but got stuck on a deal killer: no apparent support for defining static fields or methods.
http://longpants2.posterous.com/first-experience-with-eclips...
Eclipse launches new language to cut down Java boilerplate - Extend
171–180 of 229 posts
Re: Eclipse launches new language to cut down Java boilerplate - Extend
#172This basically looks like Kotlin, except it explicitly compiles down to Java. I'm not sure how I feel about this. Pre-Kotlin, I would have thought "hey, neat", but now it seems like we're on the verge of a number of half-supported half-hearted attempts at being Java.next, each with their own pros and cons. I wish that IDEA and Eclipse could have worked together on this.
It's a pity everyone gets so worked up over trivial things like parens - Clojure is a beautiful language that absolutely deserves to be the next big language on the JVM. Yes, it offers a different programming paradigm from Java, but perhaps to make any genuine headway in the future we need a clean break from Object Orientation and it's muddled conflation of identity and state.
Are you absolutely sure that Clojure can fit all problem domains? Clojure might be great for MapReduce type of programming. Does it fit a typical Accounting, CRM, Claim management (those kind of business-y app) software projects?
Re: Eclipse launches new language to cut down Java boilerplate - Extend
#173What is Xtend supposed to provide that Scala doesn't already provide? It looks like their setting out to solve a subset of the problems that Scala deals with already.
by the looks of it, a decent IDE perhaps.
I've found the open source version of intellij + scala plugin most impressive. Reliable code completion and everthing i've come to expect from a java IDE. I've had much less success with scala plugins for Eclipse and Netbeans. Without the intellij plugin for Scala I wouldn't have chosen Scala.
Re: Eclipse launches new language to cut down Java boilerplate - Extend
#174yet another Scala
It's not just Scala, it's Groovy, BeanShell, Factor (JFactor now), Fantom, Frege, Kotlin, Ceylon, Stab, Gosu, Mirah, and that's not counting all the ported versions of Ruby, Python, Lisp (Clojure) and so on. What you haven't written a JVM language yet? It used to be you weren't a proper programmer until you'd gotten fed up and written your own CMS or web framework. Now I guess everyone has to have their own programmi…
Clojure is not a proted Lisp. Clojure is a new language that is just as diffrent from any other Lisp as Groovy is diffrent from Ruby or Scala from ML.
Re: Eclipse launches new language to cut down Java boilerplate - Extend
#175Scala had its chance, and it didn't work...no matter what Martin and his boys, and his minions want. Kotlin will take over Java. That is fact. Mark my words on 11/05/2011.
You've repeated those sentiments up and down this thread. Personally I don't see much difference between the two, even syntactically. I've seen scala starting to get a foothold at my organisation, but haven't heard of anyone discussing Kotlin. What is also interesting is doing a trends search for scala jobs at indeed.com It looks like Scala has started to get a small but very rapidly growing slice of the job market
Re: Eclipse launches new language to cut down Java boilerplate - Extend
#176This basically looks like Kotlin, except it explicitly compiles down to Java. I'm not sure how I feel about this. Pre-Kotlin, I would have thought "hey, neat", but now it seems like we're on the verge of a number of half-supported half-hearted attempts at being Java.next, each with their own pros and cons. I wish that IDEA and Eclipse could have worked together on this.
It's a pity everyone gets so worked up over trivial things like parens - Clojure is a beautiful language that absolutely deserves to be the next big language on the JVM. Yes, it offers a different programming paradigm from Java, but perhaps to make any genuine headway in the future we need a clean break from Object Orientation and it's muddled conflation of identity and state.
Trust that I, a programmer who cut his teeth on LISP, offer this brutal truth in a spirit of compassion:
LISP is the second-oldest HLL there is. As a syntax and a way of structuring code, S-expressions have been around since before the vast majority of software developers were born. Despite what one might be read to believe in reading the self-promoting protestations of Paul Graham, it has never gained much traction outside a few ivory tower settings. If it were going to take the world by storm, it should have done so by now.
The syntax is a major stumbling block for the vast majority of programmers, including a number of very smart people. This is not because of some failing on the part of said programmers. It is a simple by-product of the fact that its primary design goal was not to be a language in which humans can conveniently arrange and express their thoughts. It just wasn't; this was an era where coding in machine language was still common, and where the things language designers could dream up were severely limited by the rudimentary parser and compiler technology of the time.
As time passed and technology permitted, almost all the world came to settle on a certain principle in language design: Things that behave differently should look different. This is not trivial. It is a principle that is guided by the fact that human brains are designed to distinguish things by shape first and foremost. Parsing is more difficult and time-consuming, and so languages that minimize the amount of parsing that humans must perform will be easier for humans to use. There is but one remaining community which holds out against this simple truth: LISPers.
With modern technology we have a new crop of languages, ML and its descendants such as Scala, which adopt and expand on the principles that made LISP stand out so many decades ago. And they have the added advantage of being designed such that different things look different, and so people tend to have an easier time using them. And we see rapid adoption of these languages, and popular opinion agreeing that they are Good and have much to offer. Thus the key thing which makes LISP great finally sees vindication in the world at large, and the idea that LISP championed, the idea that processes are primarily composed of verbs rather than nouns, becomes transcendent.
And yet, there are still so many LISPers who continue to hold out, and refuse to accept this victory, because it is a victory that lacks S-expressions and their trademark parentheses.
And yet, they think it is everyone else who is irrationally hung up on syntax.
Re: Eclipse launches new language to cut down Java boilerplate - Extend
#177Earlier quoted context omitted.
You'd use an underscore to form a partially applied function: foo.Sort(x.compare _) And Scala's getters and setters are essentially equivalent to C#'s properties: class A { private var _x = 0 def x = _x def x_=(value: Int) { _x = value } } val a = new A a.x = 5 println(a.x)
So instead of a simple, uniform rule that () invokes a function, and no-() references the function, you add yet a third syntax? This is not an improvement, it is an unnecessary complication.
That's not the same thing. You obviously use partial application only if the function takes params. And I just can't see why you'd like to pass a reference on a parameter-less function.
Re: Eclipse launches new language to cut down Java boilerplate - Extend
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's a pity everyone gets so worked up over trivial things like parens - Clojure is a beautiful language that absolutely deserves to be the next big language on the JVM. Yes, it offers a different programming paradigm from Java, but perhaps to make any genuine headway in the future we need a clean break from Object Orientation and it's muddled conflation of identity and state.
Are you absolutely sure that Clojure can fit all problem domains? Clojure might be great for MapReduce type of programming. Does it fit a typical Accounting, CRM, Claim management (those kind of business-y app) software projects?
Actually, I really am sure Clojure will fit in all of those problem domains. Indeed, I'm pretty sure that if you experienced a well-written Clojure accounting app, you'd wonder why people bothered with Java.
Re: Eclipse launches new language to cut down Java boilerplate - Extend
#179Parenthesis for method invocations are optional, if the method does not take any arguments. obj.compute instead of obj.compute() That seems silly. The optional semicolons also irritate me. ----------------- (Added) I imagine a committee of Java developers, in a penthouse boardroom at Oracle, meeting with management to discuss Java's descent into disuse. "Lets make Java more concise," suggests a senior developer. "Yes…
Cargo cult is actually your argument, i.e thinking you need the parenthesis and the semicolons, just because Java always had them...
The point is removing them accomplishes little and adds ambiguity. There's something to be said about not changing things that adds no value; momentum and familiarity are valuable features, even if technically they're not needed.
This trend of trying to strip programming languages down to their "essence" is a fools errand and the pendulum will swing back eventually (not fast enough in my opinion).
Re: Eclipse launches new language to cut down Java boilerplate - Extend
#180yet another Scala
Scala has a time to market and a perception problem. Look for Kotlin to be the Scala that Scala never will be.
There was a recent survey which asked java devs which jvm languages they were taking a serious look at. Scala came out on top with groovy as the runner up. Kotlin was an also ran. Survey results:
aftershox.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/JVM_Survey_Responses.png