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Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

theguardian.com

171–180 of 299 posts

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not see why it is gross. Employees have more utility if they get an abortion and less utility if they have to spend time out for parental leave. If society wants to promote parenting, then society should pass laws about parental leave. Individual businesses have no obligation to reduce their competitiveness in the marketplace.

That's exactly why it's gross. And why nations should codify parental leave and similar policies. Failing that, it's a race to the bottom in any employment relationship where the employee doesn't have higher-than-average power.

My point is the “gross”-ness is attributable to voters and politicians, not businesses.

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#172

Do people agree that corporations should respect the customs and values of the local people when operating their business there? If yes, then Amazon is not "bowing", and it is The Guardian who is playing word games here. If not, then it would seem to imply that we are OK with western powers using their capital (instead of gunboats) to impose their ideology on other cultures in the world. Now, one may argue that the c…

I think it's a spectrum. When adjusting to local culture in a more colloquial manner, e.g., like what McDonald's and KFC do with their food in places like China, I think that is fine. However, when it comes to supporting and enabling ideology and policies that directly conflict with the values of the country that company is headquartered in and actually most of the developed world, then I think it's a national security issue. Because then, customers in the host country and the company itself are directly funding the conflicting ideology.

People not liking to eat cheese or beef or rice porridge is different than human rights issues. In general, I am not a fan of pushing or maintaining an ideology over another when it comes to economic and other such policies, but when it comes to human rights violations, I don't think that's something that should be bowed to.

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By not providing your services to the people of these countries, you are making their quality of life worse. See heavily sanctioned countries like North Korea and Iran for examples of quite how much worse life is for those citizens. "I don't want to support Mohammed bin Salman" needs to be traded off against "I don't want to make 34 million people have worse lives". In my view, in nearly every case, the latter effect…

As a former Chinese citizen, I've always been a bit confused why people get mad at companies operating in the country, censored. At least in my experience, a censored version of a foreign website is always much better than the stuff developed locally, and there are some political reasons for this I won't go into. In my opinion, it's pure virtue signalling to argue that "a company compromising morals in a different co…

> The only people that care that {some company} is censored in China are distinctly people outside of China.

That's how censorship works. The people inside the bubble don't know, by design, what information has been omitted, and therefore can't care.

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trend of “we’ll pay for your abortion, but won’t make it tolerable to be a working mom” is extremely gross.

I do not see why it is gross. Employees have more utility if they get an abortion and less utility if they have to spend time out for parental leave. If society wants to promote parenting, then society should pass laws about parental leave. Individual businesses have no obligation to reduce their competitiveness in the marketplace.

> Employees have more utility if they get an abortion

This is exactly what people find gross about it. This is like defending walmart for avoiding hiring full time employees so they don't have to provide health care because you think healthcare should be provided by the gov.

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trend of “we’ll pay for your abortion, but won’t make it tolerable to be a working mom” is extremely gross.

I do not see why it is gross. Employees have more utility if they get an abortion and less utility if they have to spend time out for parental leave. If society wants to promote parenting, then society should pass laws about parental leave. Individual businesses have no obligation to reduce their competitiveness in the marketplace.

> I do not see why it is gross

It's the whole bit about forgetting people are people. If you want robots go R&D some robots

> Employees have more utility if they get an abortion

Yea like that

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not see why it is gross. Employees have more utility if they get an abortion and less utility if they have to spend time out for parental leave. If society wants to promote parenting, then society should pass laws about parental leave. Individual businesses have no obligation to reduce their competitiveness in the marketplace.

> Employees have more utility if they get an abortion This is exactly what people find gross about it. This is like defending walmart for avoiding hiring full time employees so they don't have to provide health care because you think healthcare should be provided by the gov.

I am not defending Walmart. But I will not attack Walmart for playing by the rules.

> This is exactly what people find gross about it.

Calculating that an employee out on parental leave will cost you more (and hence cause you to be less competitive in the marketplace) than an employee that is working is not gross, it is simply math.

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former Chinese citizen, I've always been a bit confused why people get mad at companies operating in the country, censored. At least in my experience, a censored version of a foreign website is always much better than the stuff developed locally, and there are some political reasons for this I won't go into. In my opinion, it's pure virtue signalling to argue that "a company compromising morals in a different co…

> The only people that care that {some company} is censored in China are distinctly people outside of China. That's how censorship works. The people inside the bubble don't know, by design, what information has been omitted, and therefore can't care.

You seem to have taken this quote out of context. My point is that "a less censored platform is always better", in other words "Google but censored is better than Baidu".

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#178

There's no such thing as a woke corporation. Corporate wokeness is an illusion created by PR departments to maximize market share.

That's like saying magicians don't exist, they're just people who present the illusion of magic for entertainment. Yeah, that's what 'magician' means.

You literally explained what a woke corporation is, while simultaneously denying its existence.

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternatively, there is such a thing as a woke corporation, and there is such a thing as an anti gay corporation, and they might even be the same corporation at different points in space and\or time. Wokism is a dominant religion (not demographically) in the US, therefore corporations there pray to wokism and observe its rituals. Anti gay islam is a dominant religion in the Middle East, therefore corporations there w…

Genuine question: what is the definition of 'woke' (in the context of how you're using it)? Dictionary tells me it is "alert to injustice in society, especially racism". But the vast majority of time I see someone talk about 'wokeness' or 'woke culture', they use the word in a derogatory manner. So I'm guessing the 'woke' mentioned is not "being alert to injustice" (as it is a pretty reasonable stance to be alert to…

>how are you defining 'woke' and 'wokism'

Tough question, it's always hard to be honest about one's definitions. I will try to formalize wokism in a way that will make it clear why I despise it to people who see nothing obviously wrong with it apriori.

- It's an ideology characterized by outsized obsession with and the veneration of a few identities, chief among which are women, queers, and varying subsets of non-white ethnic groups.

- It's an ideology characterized by outsized hatred\bias\dismissal against the "opposite" of the above venerated groups, namely straights and\or whites and\or men, among others.

- It's an ideology that is utterly convinced of the morality of every single one of its positions, and sees 0 utility in debating, compromising with, co-existing, or even ignoring in peace any of its myriad opponents.

- It's an ideology that is uniformly in power across Western (== USA, Canada, Australia, and north-western Europe until the border defined by Russia, Poland, Hungary and the Balkans) institutions, chief among which are media, PR/HR departments of any corporation, law, secular universities, non profit organizations and think tanks, any left of center political organization, and, of course, mainstream social media.

Solve this system of constraints to whatever degree of accuracy you desire, and whatever the solver spits out is a wokism.

As to why someone would hate wokism, several reasons.

- They belong to a group mentioned in #2, or adjacent\similar to one.

- #3 makes sure that any single opposition or push back to wokism is a declaration of war against all of wokism. For instance, I'm atheist, vegetarian, non-white, left-leaning on economic matters, and very moderately progressive (== A lot of tradition is stupid, but we don't know which, and so one must be always very careful overriding it) on social matters. All of this isn't enough to offset the fact that I'm a straight man who is pro free speech.

- #4 makes wokism pattern-match to patterns that describe other authoritarian ideologies. Wokism is extremely similar in rhetoric and actions to religious fundamentalists in my country for example (which is why I call them a religion, they tick all the boxes except having a prophet, a god, and a path to forgiveness), other people who witnessed communist dictatorships often compare wokism to one. Regardless of whether those comparisons are in fact valid, wokism reminds (and promises) some of its opponents of much uglier things.

>Dictionary tells me it is "alert to injustice in society, especially racism"

Dictionary was right till about 2018-2019. The word 'Woke' dates back to the 1930s, originally meaning literal awareness and coined in AAVE, as in "Those cops appear to be looking for trouble, stay woke". By the 1960s the term refered to more abstract awareness of cultural\political matters, and by the 2000s the term reached wider English usage and had primarily positive connotations. See Wikipedia and linguist John McWhorter for more details about the history of the word.

The negative connotations of the word appears to have started roughly in early to mid 2020, replacing 'SJWs' or 'Social Justice Warriors' (itself an originally positive term, originally coined by the ideology itself and later used as an insult by roughly 2013-2014). Now it's the dominant word used to refer to the ideology described above and its adherents.

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#180
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, let's see that superiority when the US supremacy breaks down. Because the only way that the Western culture has prevailed this century is through bloodshed.

There must be some western culture that has been successful because it is what humans naturally gravitate towards.

Muslim culture is probably the most successful culture if you are looking at growth over the last 1000 years or so.
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