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On leaving Mapbox after 12 years

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Re: On leaving Mapbox after 12 years

#171

Post by sangnoir »

kfox2010 wrote: post #164

Trying to understand how in the same short form piece we get: > "I still bristle at the word “career”. Not for me." And then end it with: > "The skills and connections I developed at Mapbox set me up for a smooth and satisfying career transition." So do you have a career or not?

I once bought a brown/bronze car at a discount. It was the ugliest color I had ever seen on a car, but I still drove it for many months.

I really hated it, but what could I do? I couldn't afford another car, so I had to live with it every single day. I'm guessing author feels something similar about having a career.

Re: On leaving Mapbox after 12 years

#172

Post by erlich »

groby_b wrote: post #161
erlich wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people always think it’s a good idea to unionize when a company is fighting for survival?

In almost all cases where a company is fighting for survival, leadership has failed, often quite visibly. It's one of the few moments where rank-and-file folk realize they do need a say in where things are heading - because you start seeing that the leaders aren't somehow magic beings with perfect decision making qualities. And, at the same point, you get strong reminders that your livelihood is coupled to the compan…

”Your livelihood“

Buts it’s not. They can leave and find another job easily.

I agree that management can often be shit and make bad decisions. But at the end of the day everyone is working to make the owners a lot of money, and if the owners cannot see how shit management is, why should employees bother? They don’t stand to gain, only keep working at a company they believe could do great things. See…the incentives for employees drift off into intangible and unmeasurable things.

If a union was able to shift the strategy of a company, what happens if they are wrong and it bankrupts the company. They have no skin in the game. It makes no sense.

Re: On leaving Mapbox after 12 years

#173

Post by Apocryphon »

erlich wrote: post #165
Apocryphon wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does (in your view) capitalism mandate that only owners hold management responsible, and that workers having a say would distort that process? Are you suggesting that class warfare is inevitable? (That's a Marxist concept.) Otherwise, why keep workers out of the decision-making process? Also, if in most tech companies workers are given equity, are they not owners also?

Workers don’t have same incentives. They can push for conditions that would risk bankrupting company, and if the company does shutter, they can simply get new jobs with no loss. Meanwhile owners lose their money.

Workers don't have an incentive of bankrupting the company. And not all employees are so blasé about finding another job- there are always some dependent upon a company for their livelihoods. Different owners also have different risk thresholds. As evidenced by the lavish VC funding of the past decade, there are many investors with a strong stomach for waste and failure.

Examples of unions fighting for management to make better business decisions:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13986889

https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3mjxg/general-electric-work...

Re: On leaving Mapbox after 12 years

#174

Post by simondotau »

Apocryphon wrote: post #170
erlich wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a committee of employees has a better strategy for profitability? I don’t see it. The employees have dramatically less incentive than the owners and management to earn the owners an adequate return on their investment.

Perhaps the employees who are actually executing a faulty business strategy can see its first errors up front.

I’m sure that’s true some of the time. I wouldn’t say it’s true most of the time.

Re: On leaving Mapbox after 12 years

#175

Post by jenny91 »

sclv wrote: post #131
jenny91 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, too strict labor regulations around e.g. firing/letting employess go certainly would hinder some of the innovation hapening in the US and especially tech. Though maybe there is a flavor of unions that recognizes this and pushes for other things e.g. proper treatment of contractors, or osme slight input in direction, etc? I think the US is screwed for unions mostly because to unionize you basically have to jo…

I don't think any of this is impossible to change. There was just a Labor Notes conference this weekend where thousands of people pushing for more democratic and rank and file run unions showed up. And examples like the ALU show that going through existing unions isn't the only way possible. And beyond that, even organizing with a major union can still give you a local you have power over - workers at the the times t…

You're kind of right: I'm generally pretty pessimistic about systemic change in big systems where I'm merely a pawn. Though it definitely happens regularly! So hopefully the existing unions change and things move forward!

I am not saying that job protections hinder all innovation. But the "liquidity" of labor most certainly gives companies more control and an easier time making changes in many ways. I think that has an undeniable upside for instance with startups who want to push growth to the max without worrying much about possible troubles later.

And I think safety and comfort in tech doesn't come from the particular employer but rather how sought after tech employees currently are.

Anyway, I'm talking specifically about tech and tech innovation here: for other industries things are again slightly different. And I do really think that job protections definitely drive innovation in established and stable organizations!

Re: On leaving Mapbox after 12 years

#176

Post by Apocryphon »

erlich wrote: post #172
groby_b wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In almost all cases where a company is fighting for survival, leadership has failed, often quite visibly. It's one of the few moments where rank-and-file folk realize they do need a say in where things are heading - because you start seeing that the leaders aren't somehow magic beings with perfect decision making qualities. And, at the same point, you get strong reminders that your livelihood is coupled to the compan…

”Your livelihood“ Buts it’s not. They can leave and find another job easily. I agree that management can often be shit and make bad decisions. But at the end of the day everyone is working to make the owners a lot of money, and if the owners cannot see how shit management is, why should employees bother? They don’t stand to gain, only keep working at a company they believe could do great things. See…the incentives fo…

> They can leave and find another job easily.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31818323

> why should employees bother?

Perhaps they care about the mission. Perhaps they care about the customers. Perhaps they want to ensure the work they've been working on was not made in vain. You seem to see work as purely satisfying the lower ranks of Maslow's hierarchy, but for many workers it is also a means of self-actualization.

> If a union was able to shift the strategy of a company, what happens if they are wrong and it bankrupts the company.

And what if management or the owners do that? How about giving someone else involved in the endeavor a try?

> They have no skin in the game.

They literally have skin in the game?

Re: On leaving Mapbox after 12 years

#177

Post by erlich »

sclv wrote: post #128
erlich wrote: post #115

This is such a crazy and enraging read. If you don’t like your job, go join another company. It’s not as if devs don’t have plenty of high paying choices out there. Especially for a startup that had struggled to find market fit, the last thing they need is a union. Companies are not democracies and setting up a union is a hostile action. It basically says: here are the things we want and if we don’t get them we all s…

Yes, companies are not democracies. That's why we need unions! That's the only way to exercise our collective power to negotiate with the employer on more equal terms. When we negotiate individually we also say "here are the things we want, and that is our condition of work." There is _always_ a conflict between what employees want, which involves wages and conditions, and what employers want, which is getting the mo…

The market sorts out wages and conditions. I will assume you are not talking about developers because they have so many choices at all different salary ranges that are higher than many other industries.

Contractors in minimum wage roles would be the only candidate for unions.

Re: On leaving Mapbox after 12 years

#178

Post by Apocryphon »

simondotau wrote: post #174
Apocryphon wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the employees who are actually executing a faulty business strategy can see its first errors up front.

I’m sure that’s true some of the time. I wouldn’t say it’s true most of the time.

Perhaps your supposition should be put to the test.

Re: On leaving Mapbox after 12 years

#179

Post by thematrixturtle »

fomine3 wrote: post #149
thematrixturtle wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yes? Shinkansen is intercity transport and that's exactly why it's priced to compete with airlines.

Shinkansen is comfortable than airline, no annoying inspection, almost no wait, and utilization is high enough. So technically it should be priced higher than airline, but I also feel it's weird that high CO2 emission airline is cheaper than lower emission train.

For whatever reason (probably just inertia), JR has been highly resistant to adopt dynamic pricing, so Shinkansen tickets costs the same regardless of whether you travel at absolute peak or when the trains are rattlingly empty. This is starting to crumble at the edges a little bit, and I expect advance-purchase fares to plunge if they ever do make the leap.

Re: On leaving Mapbox after 12 years

#180

Post by erlich »

cyphar wrote: post #148
billyhoffman wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s really easy to leave a company If you become disheartened or don’t agree with their direction. It’s virtually impossible to leave your country.

Sure, it's easy unless: * You are dependent on your employer for your work visa; * You are dependent on your employer for your health insurance (US-specific problem); * You have don't have much experience in industry and thus will not easily be able to find a similar job; * You don't have enough savings to be able to be unemployed for a period of time while you find another job (doubly so if you have dependents or yo…

They are good points.

But unions also risk making it harder for these people to find jobs in the first place.

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