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No-one knows what they are doing

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Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#171
post #149
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to go with "Not everything is designed, or planned. Sometimes the result is just the sum of a bunch of not necessarily coordinated decisions." Some people know a lot about what they are doing and are highly skilled. A concert pianist doesn't just walk up on stage and wing it. What I think you realize when you grow up is not every decision or outcome was deliberately thought out and coordinated. Sometimes th…

>A concert pianist doesn't just walk up on stage and wing it. Well, sometimes they have to. There is the famous example where a professional concert pianist realizes when the orchestra starts that she practiced the wrong piece. They happen to have been making a documentary, so we get to see her face as she realizes what is happening. And then she "wings it", and manages to play very well anyway. [0] https://www.youtu…

That’s not what is normally meant by “winging it” though. That’s applying deep, rigorous expertise, just faster than normal.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The dark side of this mentality is that it creates the same situations whereby people believe their own intuitions are equal to professional scientific research. If you believe no one knows what they’re doing and all adults are just making it up as they go, why would you listen to experts instead of inserting your own opinions based on your Facebook research or some quip you saw online? Or folks on your own team? I…

This is common, and so is the 1-2 years experience dev churning out a ton of code. It gets work done and builds credibility, but then they make some glaring architectural mistake thats tough to rip out. PM can't see it, and eggs the dev on to keep delivering. Sometimes this is great, sometimes not. Depends on the company and the needs of the tech stack

Further to the point above, the 20 year old in this story does not actually deliver anything. But his protestations about 'slow' and 'legacy' and 'best practices' are like a siren song to some other non-tech folks who keep saying "well, sure, we don't want to be slow - we want to scale - let's do what $person is suggesting". Except... nothing gets done. Months have gone by with no measurable progress, but lots of 'review sessions' identifying $newStackX as the gold standard.

If someone wants to challenge or push back on decisions I make (for example), you better be able to deliver something a) good or b) fast. IDEALLY both, but... if you give me POC code quickly with obvious issues BUT demonstrate some improvement - that's great. We can iterate, if it's quick. Give me some fully fleshed out measurable improvement that takes a bit longer, but has some tests, docs, etc. That's good too.

Sit around and just continually 'back seat dev' on stuff I ship, while literally being incapable of delivering working software of any size, or even supporting your own stuff that you think is 'awesome'... we won't be in agreement on anything.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#174

This is a very comforting fiction to tell yourself when you’re faced with new and unfamiliar challenges. However, it’s not really true. Plenty of people within an industry or field know enough of what they’re doing because they’ve gone through it before and/or done all of the heavy research to prepare for these situations. I see the “nobody knows what they’re doing” fiction brought out as an easy antidote for imposto…

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Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been fairly close to the digitalisation agenda in UK public sector, and apart from pockets, I find it hard to be so generous. Horrible outsourcing deals with the usual suspects and enormous failed programmes are still the default.

Reading the parent comment about Denmark made me sad. I feel that in the UK we have smart, dedicated, well intentioned people just like Denmark, but if the NHS RiO system and Track-and-Trace are anything to go by we are plagued by massive corruption in the IT sector. This is the country of Alan Turing, Sir Tim Berners-Lee and Acorn RISC Machines. We need a new broom on public IT. I think we also need an outright ban…

RiO isn't an NHS product, it's made by Servelec who sell it to some NHS organisations. Yes, it's terrible.

https://www.servelec.co.uk/product-range/rio-epr-system/

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#176

I’m going to let you in on a little secret. I spent almost a decade in public sector digitalisation in Denmark, and those politicians who look like they don’t know what they are doing in the media, well, they absolutely know what they are doing. Not only that, but they get advice from a bureaucracy full of well educated, really smart people, who also know what they are doing and have known so for decades. One of the…

> adults are supposed to have the answers for everything, which isn’t true

That's the gist of all of it. No one knows what are they doing because the adults actually don't have all the answers, on the other hand smart people know what they want to achieve and they have idea and a plan for it and simply try their best. They know what are they doing in the context of their understanding, idea and desires, it's just that their understanding and ideas have limits.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#177
post #47

I’m going to let you in on a little secret. I spent almost a decade in public sector digitalisation in Denmark, and those politicians who look like they don’t know what they are doing in the media, well, they absolutely know what they are doing. Not only that, but they get advice from a bureaucracy full of well educated, really smart people, who also know what they are doing and have known so for decades. One of the…

Well digitalization in Denmark is an absolute train wreck of ill thought out decisions. To such a degree that the people in charge of it are either dumb or have ulterior motives. Having worked with bureaucrats as an external consultant and as someone that provided information to the answers for minister questions, I have a much different opinion of our dear bureaucrats. They might be smart, but it has no impact on th…

> Well digitalization in Denmark is an absolute train wreck of ill thought out decisions.

Yes, and it’s also competing with Estonia at being the best in the world.

One of the things that burned me out was actually the poor decision making, from my technical point of view mind you. I’ll simplify what I mean by a made up example of a platform selection process. Your organisation needs a headless CMS, your external consultants tells you this, your tech staff tells you this and even your friends from competitors that you network with privately tell you this. The issue is that your company strategy is to rely as little on internal IT resources as possible, and any available headless CMS (because you can’t outhouse the data) requires technical talent. So what do you do? Well, you pick something else, like Wordpress, the Microsoft powerplatform or similar, and you do fine. The solution is shit technically, but it also works good enough while achieving its primary strategic goal within your organisation.

Public sector digitalisation is that, except a billion times more complicated and with the added bonus of having changing political leadership. For a few years we had a designated minister in Sophie Løhde, who setup a branch of the digitalisation ministry to build a cross sector national enterprise architecture inspired by the one they run in the municipalities (KL) called rammearkitekturen. The group had an extreme amount of talent and improved on the 20 years of KL work so much it was like the whole thing went from the stoneage to the spaceage in less than a year. Then Sophie Lødhe got a different job, the task force was disbanded and everything related to governance went back to the municipalities (KL and KOMBIT) whom through out the process had suffered from an extreme inability to kill their darlings.

I mean, that’s just a glimpse of it, but you don’t have to work with other European countries for very long until you relive just how awesome digitalisation is in Denmark by comparison. Part of my current job is dealing with the fact that FTP is still a very common data transfer channel in Germany and France, and I didn’t miss that S in SFTP, because that’s something even massive tech companies that shall remain unnamed hadn’t heard about until I asked them why it wasn’t encrypted.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#178
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrt to imposter syndrome - I often have this feeling, especially since I don't have any formal training in anything IT related. Recently a kid showed up at work to do an internship. He's studying computer science, all kinds of advanced algorithm stuff. He's utterly clueless at even beginning to find the cause of a simple bug in a php application. Incapable of interpreting a bug report, finding the class that serves a…

> ... studying computer science, all kinds of advanced algorithm stuff. He's utterly clueless at... One thing I notice in some rhetoric (not necessarily yours) is the idea that people are static. That if one is clueless now, they'll always be clueless. People continuously evolve personally and professionally. The road to mastery and understanding always begins with confusion and uncertainty. It's totally reasonable t…

You're right, it's probably unreasonable to expect them to be able to grasp the day to day grind immediately, it's just that 2 months later he still wasn't able to work independently and we had to spend a lot more time with him than we expected. We assumed he had enough common sense to pick things up quicker.

But no doubt, he's probably smarter than I am and will go further in his IT career.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#179
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think of president Zelenskiy of Ukraine is an exception?

Why did you choose him in particular? Do you believe him to be the most capable politician today?

Yes. He certainly shines in the spotlight but maybe that's not how we should judge him.

Re: No-one knows what they are doing

#180
post #130
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a better phrase is "everybody is winging it", because once you get good at something, then you tend to end up working on something that's at the edge of your current understanding, either through promotion or some sense of seniority in the industry. This isn't necessarily true for all jobs, but I think it's especially true in the software industry. I've been a CTO for 17 years, but I still feel like I'm wingi…

I'm going to go with "Not everything is designed, or planned. Sometimes the result is just the sum of a bunch of not necessarily coordinated decisions." Some people know a lot about what they are doing and are highly skilled. A concert pianist doesn't just walk up on stage and wing it. What I think you realize when you grow up is not every decision or outcome was deliberately thought out and coordinated. Sometimes th…

> A concert pianist doesn't just walk up on stage and wing it.

The concert pianist couldn’t wing it with an oboe, violin or trumpet. But that’s what the full stack dev does. Wing it with this service, that framework, some other language, etc

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