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Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

forbes.com

171–180 of 329 posts

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#171
If your job posting doesn't give some indication as to the possible salary range, I'm just not going to apply.

What? I'm going to go through some bullshit interview process that includes some esoteric algorithm problem that has nothing to do with the actual position in question and, even if it did, I could "npm install"/google my way out of only to find out later on that the job pays the same (or less) than what I make right now?

That's just a waste of everyone's time.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#172
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Software Engineer I - 40-250k”

anything preventing them from doing very large ranges like that?

I am told that judges tend to be unimpressed with technically following a law in a way that blatantly ignores the intent; I suspect that if you tried to claim a larger range than actually exists in salaries you actually pay then they'd still find you to have broken the law. But IANAL and know nothing of the specifics; take with large grain of salt.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the pay bands go up. Everyone gets paid more, board salary go down a bit, and things hopefully become a bit more event. Sounds good? Things have been going the other direction far too long.

Board retainers aren't significant expense anywhere as far as I'm aware. Often their stipends are less than an employee's pay. For example, Google's board stipend is $100k, which is about half the median total comp of an average employee (less, counting benefits). Walmart I think pays their board $60k. You may be thinking of executive comp, but even then it is generally not significant amount. You could completely el…

Walmart is a bad comparison there; they have an enormous headcount of low-paid staff. Many tech companies are far lower headcount, but with high executive pay.

Looking at some other companies, Activision-Blizzard's CEO alone makes enough to pay every employee a $15,000 bonus. Reed Hastings at Netflix makes enough to pay every employee $3800. And that's not counting any of the rest of the executive staff, or all the other ways money flows out of a company to non-employees, like dividends and stock buybacks.

https://www.equilar.com/reports/83-equilar-associated-press-...

I think there's certainly a lot of room for wages to go up, though i'm skeptical that it will come at the expense of things like executive pay or share buybacks.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the pay bands go up. Everyone gets paid more, board salary go down a bit, and things hopefully become a bit more event. Sounds good? Things have been going the other direction far too long.

How does that follow? They will just lower the bottom of the pay bands, and now people who in the bottom third are at the midpoint without another dollar being spent.

And then, because law is not code and being technically correct is frequently not the best kind of correct, the question becomes "OK, are there actually any employees at that point in the pay band?" and folks start tugging their collars and going "well..." until that activity becomes disallowed, either via judicial interpretation or legislative amendment.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it is. If more start to do it, it becomes an arms race. If a company is loading the compensation in other ways and coming in light on salary then their job posting becomes much less compelling for job seekers. So they have a choice: disclose the other compensation (in order to compete with the salary numbers of the other companies) or adjust their compensation to be heavier on salary so their numbers are in line…

I'm sad more companies don't up their 401k contributions, most people don't realize their employer can put in 40k a year (!!!) into an employee's 401k. Due to the wonders of tax law, that is equiv to 60k cash, and that isn't counting the earnings or the flexibility to reallocate 401k investments w/o having to pay taxes on earnings when changing where the money is invested.

> Due to the wonders of tax law, that is equiv to 60k cash

And equivalent to 0 cash for paying the rent. I suspect that’s why it doesn’t seem to be a prominent concern in discussions about tech compensation.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#176

There are a ton of people here who probably make 6 figures complaining about pay ranges in job postings. I am not sure I fully see how this is a problem, any minimum wage job says pay range (or a specific rate), any job for dish washers or line cooks say $18 a hour or what not, a tech job with a six figure salary should at least say a range, since it varies based on skill and department. I haven't read a single respo…

At some point as a high achiever you end up worrying about the ceiling rather than the floor. For example, let's say a software job is listed with a range of $200k to $250k comp. And you want more than that. But will the employer be willing, or allowed, to negotiate with you an amount over $250k? After all, the job posting says $250k is the top of the range. Maybe it would be illegal to pay you more! But at a company…

i don't think the salary has to be in the range, its just that the range is based on current salaries.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I haven't read a single response that I agree with as to why this is a negative? ...They are going to provide a range like $42k to $55k Why? Its like prop 65 cancer warnings being on 100% of the products and buildings in CA. Its just a thing you do so as to avoid liability. Now, we have these useless warnings pasted everywhere that have no meaning beyond compliance. Is CA better off with these warnings? I can't ima…

I'm sorry, I don't see how this is the same. Will you explain why you think they are similar?

What is the incentive for companies to put down meaningful/useful information? If that incentive exists, why weren't they doing it before the law was enacted? Alternatively, they weren't doing it before, so a priori I'd wager that the opposite incentive exists (to hide information from candidates). This law isn't changing incentives so behavior won't change beyond nominal compliance with the law.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#178
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nit to pick: States can and do regulate interstate commerce all the time. California once banned the import of foie gras into the state, and IIRC are planning a law banning the import of foreign oil. Some states ban the import of firearms they don't wish to exist. Whether they should be allowed to engage in the regulation of interstate commerce for activities that occur entirely extra-state is probably more along wha…

> States can and do regulate interstate commerce all the time. California once banned the import of foie gras into the state, and IIRC are planning a law banning the import of foreign oil. This is fine. Sacramento can regulate what's coming into California. It cannot set food labeling requirements for Michigan.

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Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#179
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article [1] seems to state pretty clearly that the law applies to all job posting by a company in Washington state. Any sources saying it's only about jobs open to Washington residents? [1] https://www.dwt.com/blogs/employment-labor-and-benefits/2022...

> sources saying it's only about jobs open to Washington residents? Washington state can't regulate how Microsoft hires people in Texas. Microsoft Corp. isn't even a Washington legal entity. (EDIT: Never mind, I stand corrected [1]. In any case, the broader point stands. Delaware doesn't get to regulate how its entities hire outside Delaware. This is well-settled employment/interstate commerce law.) [1] https://www.s…

What are your qualifications to be dispensing legal advice in this area, if any?

Yes, a company headquartered in california is (in many cases) still bound by california law even if the employee is located in another state. The obvious example is non-compete clauses, a california company still usually cannot enforce a non-compete even if the law permits it in the employee's state.

However, this situation is what's called a "conflict-of-law" and it basically comes down to the way the court interprets it.

Take it from the actual lawyers:

> The circumstances that present the strongest case against enforcement of such an agreement involves a noncompete agreement between a California-based employer and a California-based employee. But not all cases are that simple; whether California law applies depends upon the application of “conflict of law” rules.

> “Conflict of law” rules allow courts to determine what state’s laws apply when the laws of more than one state might apply to a dispute but would produce different results. For example, a noncompete agreement between a California-based employer and a Nevada-based employee that was signed in Nevada could be construed under Nevada or California law, depending on the circumstances. If Nevada law applies, the restrictive covenant might be enforceable against the employee. If California law applies, it will not be enforceable.

> Because of these issues, parties often include choice-of-law provisions telling a court to apply a particular state’s law rather than determine what state’s substantive laws apply under a conflict-of-law analysis. In most cases a court will readily accept a choice-of-law provision and apply it as the parties intended. But that’s not necessarily so in the case of a noncompete agreement.

> Like other common law doctrines, conflict-of-law rules vary from state to state. Most states will not enforce a choice-of-law provision that would violate the public policy of a state with a “materially greater interest” in the dispute or where the parties do not have a “substantial relationship” with the chosen state. In other words, a California employer cannot get around California’s prohibition against employee restrictive covenants by requiring his California employee to sign an agreement that includes a Nevada choice-of-law clause.

https://www.bonalaw.com/insights/legal-resources/is-my-out-o...

So yes, employment law in state X usually does bind a company headquartered in state X even if the employee is working in a completely different state. Doesn't matter where you live, you are employed by an entity in state X.

(or rather, it does matter, you still have to pay taxes in state Y and state Y also gets to pass rules of its own governing work in that state... practically speaking what you get is the union of the two sets of rules, you get the combination of both. In the event of a full-on "state X requires A, state Y forbids it"... then the lawyers get paid.)

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't epwr's claim. His claim is that Washington has written and passed a law that binds Microsoft's operations outside Washington state, which I'm pretty sure would violate the commerce clause.

> His claim is that Washington has written and passed a law that binds Microsoft's operations outside Washington state, which I'm pretty sure would violate the commerce clause. The commerce clause does not prevent states from having laws which impact interstate commerce unless: (1) They are preempted by federal exercise of commerce clause powers (though that's really a supremacy clause issue), or (2) they discriminat…

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