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California Drought Update May 2022 [pdf]

drought.ca.gov

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Re: California Drought Update May 2022 [pdf]

#171

Post by Aunche »

bamboozled wrote: post #26
orlp wrote: post #2

"Californians are being asked to reduce their water use by 15 percent over 2020 levels to protect water reserves and help maintain critical flows for fish and wildlife wherever possible." And by that they surely mean agriculture, right? Right? The industry responsible for 80% of the water usage in California? They surely couldn't just be asking urban consumers to reduce? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/2…

This! It's also why I don't like being told to stop eating beef / meat to stop the climate crisis when fracking and other ridiculous practices are still legal. Food and nutrition is important. Disclaimer: I tried being a vegetarian for 2 years, I didn't feel good mentally and physically so I went back to consuming meat. I'll probably try again another time.

You realize your position is contradictory, right? If nutrition is important, then people in the city should sacrifice their water, so that farmers can grow more almonds. If you're saying that corporations need to take more responsibility, you're asking farmers to grow fewer almonds, means consumers eat fewer almonds anyways, but they'll also be more expensive.

Re: California Drought Update May 2022 [pdf]

#172

Post by jjoonathan »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #46
jjoonathan wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Yes it is. Try and think a couple steps ahead. The system we live under only works because people believe in it and more or less voluntarily play by the rules. Feel free to undermine state legitimacy but know that this will result in more entities (and it will be the more powerful ones first, BigCo, city governments, etc) thumbing their nose at the state and engaging in short sighted behavior. If CA isn't gonna honor…

> Try and think a couple steps ahead.

Right back atcha.

> undermine state legitimacy

You know what would undermine state legitimacy? Lobbying some old verbiage into an excuse to make city-dwellers baghold for Big Agriculture.

> incentive

Farmers need incentive to not grow crops in a desert.

> Any lasting solution needs to be constructed on a solid legal foundation.

Yes. Not only should we strike down this absurd "promise," we should put in place a mechanism to make sure nonphysical open-ended promises don't ever get made again.

Re: California Drought Update May 2022 [pdf]

#173

Post by jjoonathan »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #141
cataphract wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the circumstances significantly changed in an unforeseen way since farmers were given water rights, many in 1800s, the State should be able to curtail those rights in the public interest. I do agree that there must be proportionality and due process, of course.

Stripping rights isn't due process. Buying rights is.

Entitlement knows no bounds.

Re: California Drought Update May 2022 [pdf]

#174

Post by kolanos »

scruple wrote: post #105
kolanos wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we know the cause is agriculture and blaming grass lawns and car washing can easily be disproven Agriculture is where your food comes from. Unless you're eating your lawn? 40% of the water going to food production is precisely where it should go. Mass starvation is bad.

It's frankly insulting that people still push this line of thought. No, we will not starve to death if California stops growing almonds and pistachios. We will it run out of livestock feed if we stop growing alfalfa and other hay grass in California that is then exported overseas.

> California produces over 13% of the nation's agricultural production value. California's top 20 crop and livestock commodities account for more than $25 billion in value. [0]

How do you plan to replace the $25 billion a year in food California produces?

And as for your alfalfa export claim...

> Based on USDA data for 2021, only 3.9% of all U.S. hay produced and 6.4% of all alfalfa hay entered the export market. [1]

[0]: https://www.fsa.usda.gov/Internet/FSA_File/10cafacts_v3.pdf [1]: https://hayandforage.com/article-3825-year-end-hay-exports-s...

Re: California Drought Update May 2022 [pdf]

#175

Post by bombcar »

bumby wrote: post #170
bombcar wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your water bill is $100 is $200 really going to change what you do much? Unlikely, unless you're already poor.

This comment seems wildly out of touch. When a majority of Americans can't afford a $500 unexpected emergency expense[1][2], you think a $100 increase is trivial? older: [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/most-americans-cant-afford-a-50... pandemic related: [2] https://highlandsolutions.com/blog/survey-reveals-spending-h...

The price of gas has doubled in a few months, and yet the roads seem as full of cars as ever. Some demand is effectively inelastic.

Re: California Drought Update May 2022 [pdf]

#176

Post by kolanos »

mdavis6890 wrote: post #124
kolanos wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is sacrificing exactly? > The federal government said Wednesday that it won’t deliver water to farmers in California’s agricultural belt, which produces roughly a quarter of the nation’s food, due to the extreme water shortages that are expected to deepen if the direly dry conditions continue through March. [0] HN is throttling me, so I'll put this here. the CVP is the largest in the country. > In a normal year t…

Yes, but the article doesn't share any numbers that give a sense as to how much water that actually is. How much water does the Central Valley Project normally deliver? What fraction of total water use is that? What fraction of ag water use is it? My hunch is that this is a small fraction of the amount of water farms use. There are a lot of articles like this that make it sound like farms are really hit hard and havi…

We don't need to rely on hunches.

> In an average year, about 39% of California's water consumption, or 34.1 million acre-feet (42.1 km3), is used for agricultural purposes. Of that total, 11%, or 8.9 million acre-feet (11.0 km3) is not consumed by the farms for crop production but is instead recycled and reused by other water users, including environmental use, urban use, and agricultural use, yielding net water consumption for food and fiber production equal to 28% of California's water consumption, or 25.2 million acre-feet (31.1 km3). [0]

The 80% figure is false.

> In a normal year the CVP delivers about 7 million acre-feet of water for agricultural, urban, and wildlife use. [1]

Suffice to say the CVP supplies a significant portion of California's water. It is the largest such project in the country.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_in_California#Agricultur... [1]: https://www.watereducation.org/aquapedia/central-valley-proj...

Re: California Drought Update May 2022 [pdf]

#177

Post by jeffbee »

frickinLasers wrote: post #155
jeffbee wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dead wrong. The state water project is not delivering any water to agricultural customers this year. Ag is on a mandatory 100% reduction.

What does this mean? That farmers don't get enough water to wash their hands now? That there will be no crops coming out of California unless they were grown on well water? Where can I look up this reduction rate?

California "farmers" all live in Beverly Hills. And yes, they are pumping out groundwater as fast as they can.

Re: California Drought Update May 2022 [pdf]

#178

Post by scruple »

kolanos wrote: post #174
scruple wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's frankly insulting that people still push this line of thought. No, we will not starve to death if California stops growing almonds and pistachios. We will it run out of livestock feed if we stop growing alfalfa and other hay grass in California that is then exported overseas.

> California produces over 13% of the nation's agricultural production value. California's top 20 crop and livestock commodities account for more than $25 billion in value. [0] How do you plan to replace the $25 billion a year in food California produces? And as for your alfalfa export claim... > Based on USDA data for 2021, only 3.9% of all U.S. hay produced and 6.4% of all alfalfa hay entered the export market. [1]…

Show me where I said we need to stop growing all crops in the state. I'll wait.

Re: California Drought Update May 2022 [pdf]

#179

Post by scruple »

tzs wrote: post #122
scruple wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's frankly insulting that people still push this line of thought. No, we will not starve to death if California stops growing almonds and pistachios. We will it run out of livestock feed if we stop growing alfalfa and other hay grass in California that is then exported overseas.

How is alfalfa being exported relevant? Only 0.005% of the water used to grow alfalfa ends up in the alfalfa itself. Almost all of the water used for growing alfalfa ends up in the local atmosphere via either evaporation from the soil or transpiration from the plants. Before one can reasonably discuss the impact of alfalfa growing one needs to figure out what happens to that 99.995% of the water that ends up initiall…

Most of the alfalfa grown in California is in the San Joaquin Valley. Overdrafting is a well understood phenomenon at this point. No, there is not an efficient loop to be found here without significant investment in recharge infrastructure that we currently do not have.

Re: California Drought Update May 2022 [pdf]

#180

Post by bumby »

bombcar wrote: post #175
bumby wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment seems wildly out of touch. When a majority of Americans can't afford a $500 unexpected emergency expense[1][2], you think a $100 increase is trivial? older: [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/most-americans-cant-afford-a-50... pandemic related: [2] https://highlandsolutions.com/blog/survey-reveals-spending-h...

The price of gas has doubled in a few months, and yet the roads seem as full of cars as ever. Some demand is effectively inelastic.

It's taken about 6 months to double, and there was about an 8%-10% drop in demand. That drop was from levels that were already substantially depressed from the pandemic.

I'd also wager that changes in demand of gasoline is muted because some people will still need gasoline to get groceries and to work, where irrigating one's lawn is luxury by comparison. When I turn off my irrigation, I see a drop of 60-70% water usage.

https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/weekly/gasoline.php

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=a...

https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_gasoline_station_sales

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