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Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

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Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#171

Post by mlindner »

torpfactory wrote: post #116
iamhamm wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fire isn’t the hazard we need to be concerned about for Lithium-ion, it’s the destructive mining and the subsequent hazmat disposal that should be worrying everyone. The lithium mining companies are filing claims all over my county and the proposed large scale excavation of extremely sensitive desert dry lake habitats is just disgusting. I’m no fan of oil, but at least there you drill a hole and not remove a few cubi…

You kind of have to choose what sort of destruction you want: either you can have marginally more mining for the minerals required for battery production or you can have ecosystem wide damage due to further global warming. There is no free lunch.

I'll note though that eventually the fossil fuels run out, so the mining will need to be done anyway. It's only a question of now vs later with the later option being "habitat destruction AND massive global temperature rise" and the now option being just "habitat destruction". So habitats are getting destroyed either way.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#172

Post by dreamcompiler »

Animats wrote: post #58

I'm not too happy about very large lithium ion batteries as a mass market product in low-end vehicles. Lithium iron phosphate, which doesn't have the thermal runaway problem but stores less energy per kilogram, may be more appropriate there. Both BYD and Tesla are going that route at the low end. Light electric vehicles (bikes, scooters, skateboards) are now causing a sizable number of fires in NYC.[1] It's mostly a…

Li-Ion battery behavior is very predictable these days. With a good battery management system (BMS) that includes temperature control, current limiting, charge monitoring, and cell monitoring the things work very well and very safely.

Good news: Most EVs have very good BMSs.

Bad news: Lots of small consumer devices with Li-Ion batteries have lousy BMSs or none at all. Which is why their batteries don't last long and sometimes catch fire. If cheap manufacturers would stop trying to skimp on the BMS the problem would be over.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#174

Post by sokoloff »

otterley wrote: post #170
sokoloff wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not yet seen an electric leaf blower with equivalent specs as a top of the line 2-stroke. I think the minute that happens and 80% charging is under 2 hours, the industry will flip automatically. The electric leaf blowers I’ve seen (I bought 2, returned one, put the second on “sweeping dust and leaves off concrete” duty, and tried two of my fan-of-electric-anything friend’s battery blowers) are indeed quieter,…

The question isn’t whether they’re comparable in specs. The question is whether the electric version is good enough. (I’ve seen some electric models that can move 650 CFM, which is quite impressive.)

It’s not enough to move wet leaves off new grass, or maple helicopter seeds out of established grass. You know how I know? Because I’ve got one of the top-spec gas blowers and it often takes 4 or more passes to move these items. And I’ve tried 4 different electric ones, none of which came close to working on those two tasks.

Once they work equivalently, I’ll be happy to give up the maintenance and hassle of small gas engines.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#175

Post by sudosysgen »

sokoloff wrote: post #174
otterley wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question isn’t whether they’re comparable in specs. The question is whether the electric version is good enough. (I’ve seen some electric models that can move 650 CFM, which is quite impressive.)

It’s not enough to move wet leaves off new grass, or maple helicopter seeds out of established grass. You know how I know? Because I’ve got one of the top-spec gas blowers and it often takes 4 or more passes to move these items. And I’ve tried 4 different electric ones, none of which came close to working on those two tasks. Once they work equivalently, I’ll be happy to give up the maintenance and hassle of small gas…

If you're ok with a cord, I'll build you one. Otherwise, I can also build you one with a backpack mounted battery. It will be pretty expensive, though.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#176

Post by londons_explore »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #138
dylan604 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in 2020+, if you're designing a charger that doesn't stop charging when full, then you're just a cheap ass bastard that deserves to go out of business. unfortunately, the people buying things are even more cheap and would continue to buy the cheap one to complain later when their home burns down. The only solve is that these cheap chargers are regulated into oblivion

I agree, but after some limited Googling I couldn't find any evidence of these "Chinese battery chargers that don't stop charging when full", which is why I asked the comment I responded to for evidence.

I only have evidence from fire investigations I've done. I found some devices (like quadcopters) that just have a USB 5v input and a diode drop to the lithium battery. Since many USB supplies are 5.5 volts, they'll certainly catch fire pretty quick.

I also found hoverboards that have an 8s battery pack, just hooked straight to a constant voltage power supply, with no balancing circuit or charge current limiting, so some cells will end up overcharged and emit gas. There's also no protection against charging after overdischarge, which will also usually end up with a fire.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#177

Post by MertsA »

mlindner wrote: post #33
minedwiz wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, many (all?) of these ships are burning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_fuel_oil , which is not at all like petrol in that it requires preheating and atomisation to burn.

Granted, but after it's pre-heated it burns quite well.

It still doesn't burn well unless it's in a fine mist. Even just a puddle of diesel is actually quite difficult to get burning on its own without some other material as a wick of sorts. https://youtu.be/7nL10C7FSbE Great practical demonstration of the different flammability characteristics of some common fuels.

For the tar that a container ship burns, it's not going to be very volatile. Coal also burns quite well, but unless it's powdered, good luck trying to ignite some with just a match.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#178

Post by sokoloff »

sudosysgen wrote: post #175
sokoloff wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not enough to move wet leaves off new grass, or maple helicopter seeds out of established grass. You know how I know? Because I’ve got one of the top-spec gas blowers and it often takes 4 or more passes to move these items. And I’ve tried 4 different electric ones, none of which came close to working on those two tasks. Once they work equivalently, I’ll be happy to give up the maintenance and hassle of small gas…

If you're ok with a cord, I'll build you one. Otherwise, I can also build you one with a backpack mounted battery. It will be pretty expensive, though.

The corded ones are an utter joke. (12A at 120V is only 2 horsepower before considering losses.) That’s the one I have occasionally dusting the floor on a warehouse type building now. My gas blower is ~6HP and it’s one model down from the largest I think. I won't have an L6-30 handy for you to use as the supply for a corded model...

A backpack battery model would be preferable anyway; I’m already wearing a 79.9 cm^2 engine, fuel tank, and blower on my back now. No one’s going to carry this as a handheld; all the large ones are already wearable for convenience.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#179

Post by sudosysgen »

sokoloff wrote: post #178
sudosysgen wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're ok with a cord, I'll build you one. Otherwise, I can also build you one with a backpack mounted battery. It will be pretty expensive, though.

The corded ones are an utter joke. (12A at 120V is only 2 horsepower before considering losses.) That’s the one I have occasionally dusting the floor on a warehouse type building now. My gas blower is ~6HP and it’s one model down from the largest I think. I won't have an L6-30 handy for you to use as the supply for a corded model... A backpack battery model would be preferable anyway; I’m already wearing a 79.9 cm^2…

Sure, that sounds doable. How long does the runtime need to be?

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#180

Post by sokoloff »

sudosysgen wrote: post #179
sokoloff wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The corded ones are an utter joke. (12A at 120V is only 2 horsepower before considering losses.) That’s the one I have occasionally dusting the floor on a warehouse type building now. My gas blower is ~6HP and it’s one model down from the largest I think. I won't have an L6-30 handy for you to use as the supply for a corded model... A backpack battery model would be preferable anyway; I’m already wearing a 79.9 cm^2…

Sure, that sounds doable. How long does the runtime need to be?

For me, an hour of runtime would do (once the battery was 4 years old).

For it to be a commercial success, I think you’d have to be able to run 5 hours in a day (but not all at once and battery swapping/charging on the truck from 12V would be okay).

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