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Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

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Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#171

Post by ativzzz »

bschne wrote: post #17
rjh29 wrote: post #5

10-20 minutes/day was enough to teach me how to be 'mindful' on demand and mitigated a lot of mild ADHD-type problems in my life (impatience, anger, finding queues unbearable, high sensitivity to noise etc.). I spent a few months doing more, and it may not be related, but I became increasingly detached from the outside world, more self-absorbed and less motivated. Spent a lot of time just sitting and being content wi…

Mind sharing your routine? Dealing w/ similar issues and been meaning to try this sort of thing for a while after a few friends have recommended it…

Not the OP, but I've started a morning routine of meditating for ~10 mins, brushing my teeth, journaling, a short yoga and doing misc morning chores (make coffee feed dog etc).

I would say the "routine" aspect of these has been so much more impactful than any of the actual individual things that I'm doing. I'm sure 10 mins of yoga/meditation is better than doing 0 but it's nothing life changing. One of the issues with ADHD-like symptoms for me was inconsistency. Having a morning routine sets up consistency and a system within which I know exactly what I need to do to "succeed" for the day.

Reading the book Atomic Habits by James Clear helped me actually turn these things into habits.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#172

Post by jackdawed »

danuker wrote: post #112
jackdawed wrote: post #82

This is a forefront issue that Buddhism tries to address, both modern pragmatic Buddhism and fundamentalist Buddhism. It's why right speech, right action, and morals is one of the first things they drill into you. Most pragmatic practitioners will refuse to teach you if you indicate that you have some mental problems or moral deficiencies that should be addressed by a professional first, as mindfulness may end up doi…

> I've experienced all these interpersonal deficits after meditating seriously 2 hours every day for 2 years straight. Wow! I haven't meditated before. That sounds like a lot of time. Do you still meditate? What does it offer you? Has it offered you what you expected?

I still meditate daily, but more in a maintenance manner, the same way a power lifter goes to the gym out of habit, for health, without the goal of setting new PRs. Most of the time, my mind meditates itself automatically.

I am very good at deep work, and concentrating on stuff. It is also easy to deal with stress and emotions in my day to day. My life feels like playing a third person video game with the FOV slider turned to 360 degrees. Every sensation comes discretely where I can see the beginning and end. 1 second is a really long time, enough room to fit 1000s of sensations, bounded only by your speed of perception. I am aware of how my mind constructs the concept of time, the idea of later. The cool part about hitting stages of enlightenment is that there is a quantum shift in how your brain processes, that I know I cannot regress to a previous stage. But I wonder if awakening is built from physical, neural correlates, then things like dementia or a traumatic brain injury might reverse some of the effects.

Another interesting note is that I have a much higher pain tolerance, as well as sort of better control of my body movements. I know some people describe enlightenment as a full body transformation, not just the mind.

One thing that is keeping me from progressing further is the inconvenience that comes with sleep alterations caused by meditation, and how it affects my work as a programmer. I still have obligations to participate in modern society, pay bills, keep relationships, etc. And I know if I didn't do this, I would be perfectly content doing nothing all day, just meditating. It's why retreats and the monastic life is so conductive to awakening. Maybe this is the ultimate FIRE goal, I'm just working on the FI :)

For the record, the Buddha has never advocated leaving society, especially lay followers. Whether we are a monk, at a retreat, in a family, we all have a duty to be a wise citizen.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#173

Post by Trasmatta »

maroonblazer wrote: post #160
Trasmatta wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's widely known in various traditions meditation can mess you up Yeah, and the interesting thing is that in many Eastern traditions, meditation wasn't ever even recommended for the average person. And those that did do it, did so in an environment with teachers and safeguards. The McMindfulness fad is missing almost all of that, and I'm starting to see more and more stories of people hitting a dangerous wall with…

> Sam Harris is one of the current major proponents of meditation in the West, and I've heard him say "even if meditation were bad for people, I would still recommend they do it". I think that's irresponsible advice. I've been using Harris' "Waking Up" app, to great success, for a few years now and your anecdote is uncharacteristic of his guidance. Where did he say this?

I don't have a source, but I've heard him say it on his podcast before. I realize it's mostly hearsay since I can't provide a source.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#174

Post by jackdawed »

SMAAART wrote: post #133
jackdawed wrote: post #82

This is a forefront issue that Buddhism tries to address, both modern pragmatic Buddhism and fundamentalist Buddhism. It's why right speech, right action, and morals is one of the first things they drill into you. Most pragmatic practitioners will refuse to teach you if you indicate that you have some mental problems or moral deficiencies that should be addressed by a professional first, as mindfulness may end up doi…

Forefront? HA! My experience is diametrically opposite: prolong Buddhism practice often leads to ego-centric behaviors that are swept under the rug and not talked about. I was warned about it when I started getting "serious" about my practice, but I didn't believe it until I confronted it, face-to-face, on a daily basis. To this day I am the renegate and persona non grata at my Temple, ex except for the Abbot and my…

You'll love this chapter on MCTB https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-ii-light-a...

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#175

Post by TedDoesntTalk »

jmfldn wrote: post #92
jackdawed wrote: post #82

This is a forefront issue that Buddhism tries to address, both modern pragmatic Buddhism and fundamentalist Buddhism. It's why right speech, right action, and morals is one of the first things they drill into you. Most pragmatic practitioners will refuse to teach you if you indicate that you have some mental problems or moral deficiencies that should be addressed by a professional first, as mindfulness may end up doi…

A related talk by my favorite Buddhist teacher, Ajahn Sona, on 'Right Mindfulness'. https://youtu.be/JOcoynQCmZ0 Highly recommend his channel by the way.

Thanks! This guy is great! But I have to admit that he looks like one of the elders from Logan’s Run… or most any other 1970s sci-fi TV show. Of course that does not detract from god message. I just got a laugh from it.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#176

Post by PragmaticPulp »

ramraj07 wrote: post #51

Whenever someone talks about mindfulness or stoicism, the name that pops to my head is Tim Ferris. Like a less crappier Joe Rogan with an actual brain maybe? I still listen to some of his podcast episodes because he gets guests who I want to learn about. But oh my god the narcissism! I get it the podcast is about success and how to succeed, but for the love of god try to take your head out of your own ass for a minut…

Tim Ferriss’ primary value is that he was well-connected.

When he could land great podcast guests or interview subjects and let them speak it turned out great.

When he brought on certain friends or acquaintances and they tried to discuss something together with Tim’s input playing a large role, it was anywhere from boring to a disappointing mess. I haven’t listened to his podcast for years after he had a string of pseudoscience guests pushing easily debunked ideas. I vividly remember one where Tim was clearly uneasy with the obvious nonsense his guest was pushing but he wouldn’t dare push back or question anything for any reason. Really disappointing.

Tim Ferriss has always been like that, though. His whole personal brand was built on the idea that he interviewed world-class experts and delivered their knowledge to you. His old blog was almost exclusively “guest posts” which is another way of saying he got other people to write the blog for him (brilliant marketing move).

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#177

Post by davesque »

jackdawed wrote: post #168
davesque wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a balance to be struck with anything. On the one hand, teaching meditation outside of the context of religion might increase the likelihood of the purpose of the practice being misunderstood. On the other hand, any religious practice runs the risk of breeding a sense of self righteousness in the practitioner. With meditation and mindfulness, I've seen both. Also, I gotta say that language like "moral deficien…

Forgive me, English is not my first language so at times I struggle finding the right word for it. The pali word is "sila", the closest translation is morals. To be deficient in sila is to be deficient in morals, was my thought process. One example is do no harm, or avoid lying. If all your daily life is filled with causing harm, and deceit, then it will be filled with chaos and end up making it harder for you to mak…

Thanks for your additional thoughts on this. Appreciate the comments.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#178

Post by jackdawed »

2-718-281-828 wrote: post #116
jackdawed wrote: post #82

This is a forefront issue that Buddhism tries to address, both modern pragmatic Buddhism and fundamentalist Buddhism. It's why right speech, right action, and morals is one of the first things they drill into you. Most pragmatic practitioners will refuse to teach you if you indicate that you have some mental problems or moral deficiencies that should be addressed by a professional first, as mindfulness may end up doi…

what would you say are examples of harm done by dedicated meditation practiced by people with moral deficiencies?

Alice says a blunt remark that hurts Bob's feeling (unintentional wrongful speech). Bob lets Alice know that he is hurt. The average person would feel guilt/distress and apologize. Instead, Alice is equipped with attainments from meditation. Alice sees the arising of these negative emotions, non-identifies with them, and goes about her life. Bob rightfully sees this as egocentric behavior. The Eightfold Path tries to address this through Right Speech.

I've also seen it make some people more likely to fall into the trap of woo-science and dodgy, spiritual scams. The practice of awakening forces you to investigate the ways you suffer. Before, they may throw their money at these sketchy MLMs and still suffer. With meditation, they can throw their money at them and also suffer a lot less.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#179

Post by eric4smith »

Every human behavior has selfishness at its root. It’s the essential thing that keeps us alive.

After all, the act of staying alive, is a selfish act in itself.

But even giving your life for someone else is also a selfish act. Some part of you wants to be seen as the hero. And wants to be remembered as the selfless person who did all.

Even towards babies. And that’s because that behavior is hard-wired in our DNA because of our need to live forever through them.

Every so called altruistic act has to have some kind of benefit in it, even if we don’t gain anything tangible from it. The gain in this case can be moral, satisfaction or some other intangible reward.

This is taken to the extreme with modern “virtue signaling” where you get social points such as likes and comments for signaling how selfless you are.

We should get over ourselves and realize that we are selfish to the core — and in so doing actually do more for the rest of humanity, accepting the gain that we get from it.

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