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Dude, where's my fuel?

prometheusfuels.com

171–180 of 191 posts

Re: Dude, where's my fuel?

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a key element of their process. You could just distill it and humanity had millenia of expeirience in scaling and optimising that process.

Distilling doesn't make it more economical than traditional refining though, according to their whole position. Boiling involves ALOT of energy compared to passive membrane separation.

They still have a zero carbon liquid fuel so you can't compare it directly to refined fuel.

Fossil fuels should be eventually taxed into oblivion. Even at current taxation level their distilled fuel would be competitive if tax exempt for example in Europe.

Re: Dude, where's my fuel?

#172
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BMW are certain to understand investment strategy better than you. Probably they are putting seed funding into a bunch of different start-ups, and will invest more as they see further evidence of viability. That is a much more productive activity than carping ignorantly from the sidelines. Most startups flop for reasons unrelated to their technology underpinnings. E.g., incompetent website implementation.

> Probably they are putting seed funding into a bunch of different start-ups, and will invest more as they see further evidence of viability. That is a much more productive activity than carping ignorantly from the sidelines This is exactly what I'm saying: they're testing to see if this technology is viable, because we don't know if it's viable .

"Many a slip 'twixt cup and lip", "Count your chickens", and "Grass is greener" shed as much light.

If not this one, one or six among the other dozens. It's trivial electrochemistry, so the problems to be overcome are of manufacturing, which just needs money. And, we know hydrogen and ammonia synthesis work at scale; this is extra.

Re: Dude, where's my fuel?

#173
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$3.00 / gallon is our v 1.0 (before taxes)

It is mentioned in the blog post that the basic reaction is for producing ethanol. Are you then upgrading this ethanol to other fuels like gasoline, kerosene, diesel with traditional processes (e.g. something MTG, MTO-like), and how much cost does that add?

If it did nothing but put Archer Daniels Midland's corn->ethanol scam out of business, it would be a wonder.

ADM consumes a third of the US corn crop and billions of dollars of tax money, year in and year out.

Re: Dude, where's my fuel?

#174
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Efficiency is secondary. Cost is primary. While the question I was responding to was explicitly about efficiency, you might be right about cost. However, ICE tractors that are already owned along with the capital required for their use and maintenance are potentially a lot more attractive to keep vs new electric tractors. Sunshine might be free but it’s not available in sufficient quantities everywhere with current…

Solar panels are produced in many more places, now. (Former-Soviet) Georgia produces a very great number of them, for example, at exemplary prices. There is plenty of sunshine most places if you can bank fuel during off-season. Finns will probably still need to import from the south or via transmission line if the wind is off -- as they have done for many decades on a more regular schedule.

> There is plenty of sunshine most places if you can bank fuel during off-season

Energy storage is woefully insufficient yet to cover days let alone seasons so that is a very big "if."

Re: Dude, where's my fuel?

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for copy and pasting this. They need to fire their designer right away. There is absolutely no reason for me to wait 10+ seconds for their website to load text data. WTAF are they thinking? It may seem like a small thing, but it is an important detail, and it makes me question if the company is snake oil or not. It doesn't appear very professional to take this approach. Maybe it was ok in 1998, but not toda…

Yeah I gave up and came here to read the complaints against the site and I'm glad I did as I found the article interesting. Even more "interesting" is that in their news section was this article: https://www.prometheusfuels.com/news/prometheus-site-of-the-... - so I don't think they're going to be listening to HN about their design anytime soon, which is a shame as that site is awful.

The irony that you made me sit through the loading animation to see that. I've never heard of the FWA, but I'm going to make my own award site and give myself awards every year, maybe biannually.

Re: Dude, where's my fuel?

#176
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. Ammonia is certainly the best carbon-free fuel, the only real issue with it is its toxicity. Methanol is a lot easier to handle since it's a liquid at SSL conditions, and generally less dangerous, but it has it's own downsides (it's hygroscopic, for example). But I agree with you in the sense that, to me at least, the two most sane options for an e-fuel are methanol and ammonia. I think the path of trying to m…

> Ammonia is certainly the best carbon-free fuel, the only real issue with it is its toxicity If we don't care about toxicity, might as well go with hydrazine, which is liquid at room temperature and has higher energy density than ammonia. ;) (No idea about the cost of hydrazine synthesis, though) > most sane options for an e-fuel are methanol and ammonia The article seems to say their process produces ethanol. If it…

"I'm pretty sure we can go through that iceberg." --Captain of the Titanic, probably.

"Might as well go with hydrazine." --Unknown, heard before explosion.

I missed the bit on ethanol when I skimmed through the first time, but you're right. That's actually fairly exciting if it's something that can be scaled.

The part that baffles me is that if you have a workable fuel like ethanol, from an efficient process that doesn't compete with arable land, why try to make petrol from it? Ethanol is perfectly fine, and inherently cheaper than any hydrocarbon you would make from it.

Re: Dude, where's my fuel?

#177
post #3

Prometheus should be laser focused on being first to market in commercial quantities. There are people who want carbon neutral fuels today even if they are more expensive than fossil fuels. Capture that entire market with v1 of the process even if it's $10/gallon. Take everything learned to make v2 at $7/gallon and v3 at $5/gallon etc... The goal of $3/gallon is pushing Prometheus down the rabbit hole. Waiting for th…

They should release it under some sort of fair use model where they receive 10% of the profits of anyone using their technology.

Then, there doesn't need to be any marketing and limiting of availability by only having one source of product.

Product manufacturers would probably be ecstatic to generate products that have great use and public appeal, where all you need to do is be the first to be able to manufacture it.

Re: Dude, where's my fuel?

#178
post #173
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is mentioned in the blog post that the basic reaction is for producing ethanol. Are you then upgrading this ethanol to other fuels like gasoline, kerosene, diesel with traditional processes (e.g. something MTG, MTO-like), and how much cost does that add?

If it did nothing but put Archer Daniels Midland's corn->ethanol scam out of business, it would be a wonder. ADM consumes a third of the US corn crop and billions of dollars of tax money, year in and year out.

Haha, absolutely.

A lot of EU countries also mandate E10 gasoline in a misguided effort to reduce GHG emissions. I'm not sure where they get all that ethanol from, but I'm sure it's a similar agribusiness scam as US corn ethanol.

Re: Dude, where's my fuel?

#179
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solar panels are produced in many more places, now. (Former-Soviet) Georgia produces a very great number of them, for example, at exemplary prices. There is plenty of sunshine most places if you can bank fuel during off-season. Finns will probably still need to import from the south or via transmission line if the wind is off -- as they have done for many decades on a more regular schedule.

> There is plenty of sunshine most places if you can bank fuel during off-season Energy storage is woefully insufficient yet to cover days let alone seasons so that is a very big "if."

You seem to be saying you think keeping liquid fuel in tanks does not qualify as storage. If that is what you mean, you will need to explain why you think that, because it makes no sense.

If you mean we have not yet built out as much storage as we will ultimately need, because we anyway haven't enough renewable generating capacity built out yet to charge it from, then yes we know. The solution to that is obviously to continue building out renewable generating capacity, and then storage for the excess.

Re: Dude, where's my fuel?

#180
post #160
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ammonia is certainly the best carbon-free fuel, the only real issue with it is its toxicity If we don't care about toxicity, might as well go with hydrazine, which is liquid at room temperature and has higher energy density than ammonia. ;) (No idea about the cost of hydrazine synthesis, though) > most sane options for an e-fuel are methanol and ammonia The article seems to say their process produces ethanol. If it…

We do, in fact, care about toxicity, so do not e.g. expect to see ammonia powering cars. NASA and ESA are phasing out use of hydrazine because of its unfortunate handling characteristics. But solid hydrazone might still find uses. Among the chief attractions of ammonia is that it is very simply synthesized with free feedstock. You bond hydrogen stripped from water to nitrogen from air. Although toxic, it is a lot lig…

> NASA and ESA are phasing out use of hydrazine because of its unfortunate handling characteristics.

I read about various 'green propellant' efforts over the years, but it seems in practice hydrazine is still used for orbital manouvering systems. Of course for those the volumes are small compared to the launch rockets themselves. For launch vehicles it seems only old Russian and Chinese designs still use hydrazine.

> Although toxic, it is a lot lighter than air, so if it leaks it goes up, and does not hang about poisoning people in a broadening area.

Eventually yes it will dissipate upwards, but typically ammonia accidents result in a vapour cloud traveling close to the ground. E.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIi4_Poo2HY

> The main problem with hydrocarbons as synthetic fuel is that you need the carbon, which in air is at below 0.05% concentration. It is certainly possible, but seems unlikely to approach ammonia in cost.

There's certainly a largish cost to concentrating CO2 from the atmosphere. Carbon Engineering, one of the companies in the DAC space, claims 8.8 GJ/ton. Just some back of the napkin comparison to the enthalpy of formation for CO2 and H2O (+ adding an assumed 70% efficiency for CO2 dissociation and water electrolysis), and assuming we're building hydrocarbons with a 2:1 H:C ratio, that would mean a roughly 40% energy penalty compared to starting with a concentrated CO2 feedstock.

One the plus side you get a fuel with cheaper and safer handling, better energy density, and compatibility with existing equipment. Hard to say which approach will win. Might well be as you said, that for large industrial users that can take appropriate precautions like maritime shipping or peaker power plants ammonia will be a better solution, but for other smaller scale usage synthetic hydrocarbons will win.

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