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Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

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Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#171

Post by ClumsyPilot »

imiric wrote: post #162
einszwei wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am very tired of the cookie/tracking popups on many websites that don't have option to "reject all" but just "accept all" and "customise". Main example being Google Search. Looking at this, I am hopeful but not too optimistic.

Exactly. It's rich for the EU to regulate dark patterns when their own laws is the reason they're so rampant on the web today. I guess it's good that they're finally waking up to this, but they're so far behind what's going on in adtech that their actions seem almost intentionally slow. The solutions to this aren't regulatory, but technical first. Monetary fines to tech giants are mere slaps on the wrist. We, and by…

"their own laws is the reason they're so rampant on the web today"

Really? Which dark pattern would bever be created if eu didn't exist?

"We, and by that I mean the web developer community, need to make technical solutions that make it impossible for companies to infringe users' rights. I guess we should first start by defining what those should be"

So, in this process, most of the population will get told what their rights are?

Since you complain that the regupation is slow, any ETA when the technofix will be ready?

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#172

Post by ClumsyPilot »

dmitriid wrote: post #167
imiric wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It's rich for the EU to regulate dark patterns when their own laws is the reason they're so rampant on the web today. I guess it's good that they're finally waking up to this, but they're so far behind what's going on in adtech that their actions seem almost intentionally slow. The solutions to this aren't regulatory, but technical first. Monetary fines to tech giants are mere slaps on the wrist. We, and by…

> It's rich for the EU to regulate dark patterns when their own laws is the reason they're so rampant on the web today. No. The law is not the reason. Companies that knowingly and willingly break it are. Those annoying popups? The vast majority of them are illegal under GDPR, which parasites like IAB are very well aware of: https://www.iccl.ie/news/gdpr-enforcer-rules-that-iab-europe... Edit: changed article URL

Without the law they would take your data without telling you.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#173

Post by ClumsyPilot »

KMag wrote: post #92
wrboyce wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that even relevant? Your phone was trying to onboard you to a _free to use_ feature. If you can’t see the difference here, then I suspect there probably was a button labelled “fuck off” and you didn’t see that either. Honestly.

"Free to use", but presumably comes with a user agreement that opens you to some financial liability. There's a (granted small) chance that a bug, security incident, or fraud lands you in a Kafkaesque debt nightmare. I had a bit of a nightmare where one of the credit reporting agencies was convinced my residential address was inside my bank. Their online system referred me to their phone system or sending them mail.…

There ought to be penaltues for negligebce causing damage to you

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#174

Post by delusional »

miketery wrote: post #170
TavsiE9s wrote: post #123

That's going to be interesting to see if the whole credit scoring industry will have to disclose their algorithms as well. Looking at you, Schufa.

My understanding regarding credit score is that it's one of the most regulated and explainable algorithms. It's not transparent to the public, but it is auditable due to anti discrimination regulations. Am I wrong on this?

We're doing credit scoring at the Danish bank i work at. One of our requirements is that the model and architecture has to be able to provide explanations for why yohr rating is whatever it is. Both to regulators, internal auditors, and customers.

Personally, i thimk denying people a loan is a pretty impactful decision on peoples life. They deserve a reason.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#175

Post by ClumsyPilot »

ohgodplsno wrote: post #66
NullPrefix wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Violation of guidelines and community standards.

Which is itself detected by a 80PiB neural network, based on the 60TB output of new rules that another neural network spits out every week based on the temperature outside of the corner office and the taste of Sundar's coffee this morning.

So glGoogke results went to shit because the ciffee became terrible?

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#176

Post by Vespasian »

mnau wrote: post #131
narrator wrote: post #103

"We run it through our deep learning model. Here's 50 gigabytes of neural net weights."

> Here's 50 gigabytes of neural net weights. .. from few months ago. Weights change daily, most likely updated by another NN. I guess it's nice that lawmakers understand that at some point these companies used algorithms to search or sort stuff, but industry has already moved to another level. We might be able to explain specific result of neural networks (Shapely values or something like that), but the actual algori…

Well then they can explain things like what inputs to they are using (with concrete examples four each user), what metrics they are optimizing their NNs for, how their product success is measured, what their internal research is focused on etc.

I feel a lot of people on HN are looking at this from a technical standpoint while lawmakers are more interested in how these companies plan and position themselves. Explain how they "maximize profits and shareholder value" would be more accurate in my opinion

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#177

Post by movedx »

delusional wrote: post #174
miketery wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding regarding credit score is that it's one of the most regulated and explainable algorithms. It's not transparent to the public, but it is auditable due to anti discrimination regulations. Am I wrong on this?

We're doing credit scoring at the Danish bank i work at. One of our requirements is that the model and architecture has to be able to provide explanations for why yohr rating is whatever it is. Both to regulators, internal auditors, and customers. Personally, i thimk denying people a loan is a pretty impactful decision on peoples life. They deserve a reason.

Well, 90% yes and 10% no, in my opinion.

Yes, because of the obvious ramifications, as you've alluded to.

No, because it's a private company you're asking the loan of. If they don't want to lend to you, then they don't have to lend to you. I believe they should be able to come to this conclusion however they like, except based on the obvious factors like culture, gender (or lack/fluidity of), etc.

but mostly yes. I think the credit economy is an important thing to understand and people should be able to access credit so they can actualise their lives.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#178

Post by CydeWeys »

cyral wrote: post #151
psyc wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the last iOS update, Apple nagged the shit out of me to setup Apple Pay, for two days. No way to say ‘fuck off’ - only ‘remind me’. No obvious way to stop the nagging. Finally I gave them just the tip, and then pulled out before the money shot, and that seems to have shut them up for now.

Apple Pay is legitimately useful though. You can use it to pay at physical businesses if you forget your wallet (double click and face ID to turn your phone into a "tap to pay" card basically). There are also lots of apps/sites that support it so you don't have to type in your card number or even your shipping info sometimes.

That you think it's useful isn't relevant; he doesn't wanna use it and yet nevertheless has continuously been nagged about it. That's not a good experience.

Fwiw I don't use Apple Pay either. There's a lot of things I don't use, for various reasons, and "you should just give in and use it" isn't the right response.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#179

Post by icedchocolate »

trevortheblack wrote: post #165

Six percent annual turnover for non-compliance seems too low. Should be six percent for first offense, 12% for second, 25% for third, etc. Until the company fixes it's compliance or becomes insolvent.

This opinion is terrifying to me. Why has our culture become so authoritarian?

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#180

Post by throwawayboise »

delusional wrote: post #174
miketery wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding regarding credit score is that it's one of the most regulated and explainable algorithms. It's not transparent to the public, but it is auditable due to anti discrimination regulations. Am I wrong on this?

We're doing credit scoring at the Danish bank i work at. One of our requirements is that the model and architecture has to be able to provide explanations for why yohr rating is whatever it is. Both to regulators, internal auditors, and customers. Personally, i thimk denying people a loan is a pretty impactful decision on peoples life. They deserve a reason.

There are three basic reasons people don't get a loan:

- They already have too much debt

- They don't earn enough to pay it off

- They have a history of not paying off their debts.

This should not be hard to explain to most people.

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